http://devonfayr.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/choice/
I wrote this article last night. The article doesn’t directly address suicide, but it makes a point which is entirely relevant to suicide. It’s quite possible that nothing is chosen, and if that’s the case, then suicide isn’t a choice. The implications behind that notion are…well, interesting, to say the least.
Anyone looking for a way to make a positive change in their life (and anyone with an open mind) should read the article. It provides a perspective which I personally don’t see very often, and I think that many people – especially suicidal people – could benefit from understanding that perspective.
For anyone who doesn’t feel like reading too much, the article basically proposes the possibility that everything we do is based on our past experiences and our genetics. Therefore, it’s proposing that nothing is really “chosen” because free will is an illusion.
It then goes on to state that if this were true, the only way we could effectively change human behavior is by altering our present environments. Our present environments eventually become a part of our past, and since our past has great influence over our behavior, we can change our behavior positively by changing our present environments positively.
It makes sense when you consider how so many people develop suicidal thoughts in response to witnessing negative and destructive environments and experiences. If those environments and experiences were more positive, it’s not hard to imagine that fewer people would consider and commit suicide.
I’m not really looking for feedback, views, likes, or any of that nonsense; I’m just offering my perspective. That being said, I’d be glad to hear your perspectives as well.
19 comments
…perception is reality. If free will is in actuality an illusion but we perceive it as a real dependable thing, then the fact that it’s an illusion doesn’t matter at all, it still amounts to the same thing.
I get what you’re saying…but what you’re saying is kind of moot. People DO, statistically speaking, react to their environments based on the norms and values which were bestowed upon them in their pasts. Simply put, people only believe in “free will” because they live in a world where “free will” is the most common perspective on “choice” – as you said, it has nothing to do with whether or not “free will” actually exists.
That being said, it holds true that people react to their environments based on their previous experiences. So, I wrote this article to provide a realistic alternative to the commonly accepted idea that “free will” is real in order to give people a new experience to consider. Hopefully, people will take this experience seriously and not just blow it off.
Basically…I’m taking what you said and responding with “Yeah, I’m trying to fix that.” 🙂
Well, I read the whole article and I have to congratulate you. Really.
I’m glad that I found someone that thinks like me, that can see thing in a objective way.
Yes, we are just “computers”. People don’t accept those arguments because they are accustomed to romanticize life. Life isn’t romantic. People aren’t good or bad. It’s all a point of view. It’s all culture.
We’re simply animals composed by cells that are composed by atoms.
We’re molded to survive and reproduce and all we do is based on that purpose.
We’re born with predispositions to certain actions.
Well, for example the color of our eyes. It’s writen on our genes the colour that they’ll have. And it’s the same process for the rest.
Another example, the guys with more testosterone are more likely to became violent, and this predisposition combined with an violent environment probably will produce criminals or something like that.
Uhm, smart people. They too have some kind of predisposition and this combined with a culture rich environment produce intelligent human beings.
Well, all of our choices are based in many little unconscious things. So, yes, looking at things this way, I think that we don’t really have “free will”.
I can even go further. In my opinion the only purpose of living beings is the auto-preservation of the specie. So, we do everything to stay alive (well, not we here, but that’s another subject), and pass our genes, procriate.
With that in mind, I believe that everything we do it’s only for our own good. So, there are no altruistic actions, all we do is “selfish”.
Exemple: We help someone because we know that we will feel good with ourselves.
Of course we’re not do it consciously. Consciously we’re thinking that is good to help another person, not that we do it because it feels good.
Well, I don’t know if you get my point, for me it’s really hard to explain things, it’s really hard to express myself properly, but ok, I tried.
That’s it. I really like your article, you explain things very well.
I think people should really read it. We need to see the world and things in a more objective way.
Hugs. =)
I’m glad you appreciated the article! It’s something that’s been on my mind for quite some time, and I really thought I should share it with the people on this site. After all, I don’t really like the idea that so many people firmly believe that they’re “choosing” suicide when they’re really not – or at least they might not be. I do agree with you that this “choice is an illusion” idea is probably a solid fact, not just a statistic, and the same goes for your idea that human beings base their lives around surviving and procreating – not much else.
I’m glad there’s someone out there who gets that. 🙂
I really hope you keep posting stuff.
=)
I will be. I’m currently starting an entry about “belief” and how it’s counterintuitive. It should be up in a few hours.
It sounds really good, I look forward to read it.
S, I love your writings on this very ‘grand’ and interesting topic! (in fact, I’ve just subscribed to your blog, please keep writing more!).
I especially like the best when you said “by simply reading this post, you have added to your experience”, thus, altering our present (future) environments. And eventually, in this respect, we then DO have a *choice*, to change/alter our future, no matter/regardless of our current real-life’s circumstances. Never underestimate the power of Internet/online/virtual world these days, as they can really shape your thinking, experiences, and eventually even shape your life and path!
That said however, if I may add, life is complex. Much much more complex than we’ve ever thought, in fact.
There are always the ‘unknowns’ and the ‘unexpected’ things that WILL occur in each of our ‘present (future)’ environment.
We can never able to entirely predict these ‘complex’ things (read the book “Dance With Chance” and “The Black Swan”).
And even much more, we can also CHOOSE to do ‘unexpected’ things (ie: be it ‘crazy’ things we’ve never done or even experienced before, be it ‘just trying’ things, be it ‘out of curiousity’ things, or be it ‘desperate measure’ drastic things), that is totally UNrelated with our past and present environments, and therefore, might then create and open NEW ‘unexpected’ paths as well that we might then choose from!
Life is complex, we mere ordinary humans perhaps would never able to *fully* grasp and understand Life.
It’s often really all comes down to how we *act* and *react* in this ever-changing Life, for survival purpose, but also for MORE than just surviving (that’s the unique strength-points of Human species: to be able to do, choose, or create Meaningful actions, thoughts/ideas, and/or contributions).
@Something: very interesting response as well!
It’s really ironic, but now recently -thanks to your post and some other excellent posts in this site and other sources I’ve read- I’ve got some kind of ‘enlightening’ consolement sort of, in the fact that as we’re just a mere SPECIES trying best to survive on this planet in the vast cosmic arena, we shouldn’t ever think too HIGHLY of ourselves! and even our problems.
In other much more simpler statement: it’s really all comes down to: either you survive, or die. Period.
And that’s each of our job to *Act* and *React* for our mere survival.
Sure, in the very microscopic view, our problems might seem very huge, and we can then easily have our OWN rather ‘selfish’ notions such as: “I wish the world could be more X, or more Y, or more Z” and so on..
but the fact though would always remains the same: in the GRANDEST macroscopic view/perspective, each of our problems are just like a speck of DUST, in this vast cosmic universe arena!
Think about it: how can a mere ‘dust’ try to dictate how the world, the Universe *should* or must operate?? No it simply can’t!
But then again, with all these said,..it’s also true in another perspective, that we are like these small single droplet of water in the ocean.
One tiny ripple of the water might seem ‘too small’ of an effect to the ocean, but it does *CHANGE* somewhat the form of that vast ocean!
Or much more interesting concept is the “Butterfly Effect”.
Just google it to see the definition of it, it’s basically how a flap-wings of a small butterfly can really *eventually* produce a big devastating hurricane in another area far faraway!
It’s like I’ve said in above comment: Life is complex, heck, even much more complex than we’ve ever thought. Life is always full & filled with ‘unexpected’ and ‘unknown’ things ready to surprise us!
It’s like what they said also: “Nothing is constant except for CHANGE itself”, and it’s true: we, each of us, live constantly amidst the CHANGES.
It’s often really all comes down to how we *act* and *react* in this ever-changing Life, for survival purpose, but also for MORE than just surviving (that’s the unique strength-points of Human species: to be able to do, choose, or create Meaningful actions, thoughts/ideas, and/or contributions).
@niki: I’m very happy that some of our posts can contribute somehow to “enlarge” you vision of the world and help you to think about thinks in other way. That’s the whole point in that.
Hey guys, I posted the “belief” entry. It’s still not finished, but I figured that getting some feedback would help me make it better. Feel free to discuss. 🙂
http://devonfayr.wordpress.com/2010/11/04/belief/
And as for choices, Niki, I like what you said. I think we look at “choice” in a different way, but essentially, we probably have the same idea. The possibilities are endless, and it’s hard for anyone to really get a solid perspective on life before it gets completely turned around by something or someone. That being said, I think we can try our best to work with what we know and draw real conclusions based on facts and statistics. 😛
Hey there S.
I just read the new post about Belief and I obviously agree with everything you said.
Believing in something blindly without looking at the facts it’s not a smart thing to do.
I think people do that so often because they need to feel confortable. If you believe in something you can grab to that, if you look at the facts and are always doubting and questioning things you got much more work and are kind of instable. I don’t know if you understand what I’m trying to say…
Believing like that, it’s, with no doubt, a harmful thing to do.
We cannot argument about something that people believe because they will not care about what we are saying, they’re blind with that.
Exemple: Someone believes that god will save their son that is sick, so, that person thinks that there’s no need to carry the child to the hospital. Despite all the facts and arguments that other people can say this person will eventually not listen.
Of course this is really extreme but can happen.
Belief is something dangerous.
People should be able to have an open mind about everything and look at the facts, if everyone did that, the world would be something really different. Better. Much better. Incredibly better.
Minds are hard to change. The response is in education, but the problem is that the educators are the people that believe. We, as society, need to change the environment where children are educated so they be more informed and start thinking for themselves.
Well, that’s it.
=)
I agree wholeheartedly, of course. It is actually that exact reason – people are so stubborn in their beliefs – which made me want to write in the first place. Granted, I was lucky enough to have been raised in an environment which generally supported scientific analysis and an open mind, so you can imagine how annoyed I am by belief and its inherent ignorance.
Again, I’m glad you liked it.
Yes, I’ve been raisen in that kind of environment too but mostly in school, because my family has some belives. Fortunatly they never try to shove it down my throat.
S, weren’t you working in some project with people here on the site?
Yeah, we were planning on trying to organize a site for people who were suicidal but were looking for help. However, a great site with that idea has already been formed – the suicide forum.
So, we’re now sort of wanting to make a site with the intent on educating the general public about suicide, but little progress is being made on it at the moment.
I’m also personally planning on writing a book with a friend of mine about how choice ‘might be’ an illusion. The book aims to collect a LOT of evidence which supports it, and it also intends to debunk all the counterarguments. I created my blog to gain popularity for the idea.
Great idea about the book. I think it’s gonna be kind of laborious (which is good) but after finished you’re going to have something really great and educative to people.
Good, a site where people can see what suicide really is and stop with the stupid arguments about it that we listen everyday.
This is really mind bottling for me. I didn’t read the articles, just the posts. And from what was all said, I have a headache from thinking about it too much. But I do understand what you’re getting at.
Change the now, make a better tomorrow for your offspring.
Yeah, Something. I really hope the book ends up doing well. And as for the ‘suicide education project’…I don’t know what’s in store. I really don’t know how a bunch of misfits like us can actually make people listen to the truth. We’re all trying to come up with ideas, but no luck so far.
On a different note, if any of you guys post anywhere else on this site, spread the word about the Suicide Forum. Many people are afraid to actively seek help, but some still WANT to. Let them know that the Suicide Forum seems like the place to turn.
And GoingUp2Down, ‘Change’ is the plan. Let’s all do our best to actually make it happen.
GoingUp2Down, the article puts things in a much clearer way than the SP post does. If you’re interested in seeing the perspective in a bit more clarity, check the article, for sure. I’m absolutely aware of the fact that I’m not necessarily right in my analysis, but a lot of statistics go a long way. 🙂
Speaking of which, I’m going to start collecting that evidence, and it’ll be up on the blog in due time. I’m sure it’ll take me a bit longer than a normal post would, but I’ll probably start a new Suicide Project thread once I’m done.
Best wishes, everyone!