Another addition to this cycle…

What “isn’t your intention?”

You mentioned something that was related to a problem i see in this world. Due to your mention, i was reminded of something i wanted to say, and so i said it.

I’m not accusing “you” of expecting anyone to take responsibility for anything that doesn’t belong to them. I’m just pointing out that there seems to be a trend as such, in the society that i have personally observed, interacted with, and experienced.

I feel like you’re arguing (debating, discussing, whatever) with a stance that isn’t mine, but attributing that stance to me.

Also, i think that you seem to be overly emphatic about the false dichotomy of “objective versus subjective.” Obviously, a person exists in objective reality, and experiences their own lives subjectively. Both “exist.” Both “are real.” However, when your subjective “reality,” the things that only you experience the way you do, conflicts with the objective reality i attempt to clearly see, then it hinders my ability to see your perspective as “valid.”

I don’t know how i could possibly deny that subjective reality exists. I’m not sure why you think i’ve said it doesn’t. Obviously it does. Obviously, what each of us experiences is more important to ourselves, than it is to anyone else. They are not experiencing it. It’s “not their problem.” Unless, of course, you attempt to impose your subjective opinions upon the objective reality of others, in which case problems arise.

Your reasoning is flawed, however. She should DEMAND that others take responsibility for their own actions, and proceed as though they have. She should not, however, “wait” for anyone to officially acknowledge and claim said responsibilities. You know what is their fault, and it is, whether they admit it or not. You don’t have to wait for admission of guilt, to know someone is wrong or at fault.

You’re also assuming that “holding on to emotions” is a conscious, intentional thing, that can be simply chosen to occur otherwise, which, it cannot. Things make us feel. We feel, whether we want it or not. And, if we go through life ignoring inconvenient feelings, we’ll probably miss some of the important things that pain can teach us. Frustration is a result of imposed conditions, not a voluntary choice we make.

And no. We require the subjective in order to experience the objective. You’re using subjective experiences (what *I* see, what *I* touch, what *I* feel… all subjective methods of interpreting the objective, which may give each of us a different interpretation of the same objective reality) to define objective, and then claiming that i’m “denying the subjective” as if somehow i don’t believe i exist. Denying the subjective would mean that i think i’m not experiencing anything, and that only the rest of the world exists. The rest of the world will exist regardless of me.

I find your continued errant emphasis of “denying the subjective” quite perplexing. It’s almost like you’ve got it completely backwards.

I obviously care what i experience (the subjective), or i wouldn’t be depressed. If i didn’t care, nothing would disturb me, and i would have a neutral opinion toward everything, including pain, insurmountable obstacles, and lack of access to living life.

As for JustKeepDreaming… She’s doing what she came to do, attempting to help herself, by “getting this off her chest.” I agree, carrying unfair burdens imposed upon you by others, is indeed an onerous task, and will certainly limit both the quality and quantity of opportunities to live life, so, i think it’s great to get this out of you, attempt to put it to rest, put it behind you, and move on to better things… better thoughts, better intentions, better experiences, better memories, and to simply choose to be free of what is not yours to carry… whether those who imposed those burdens accept their blame, or not.

That said, if it was me, i’d require them admit their wrongs and apologize formally, in order to express forgiveness to them. Otherwise, i have no need to forgive someone who refuses responsibility for that for which they are solely responsible. I don’t need to forgive anyone who doesn’t deserve it. I can simply not interact with those people ever again, and spend my time on something better… even if “something better” is sitting in silent stillness, literally staring at a wall. That’s surely better than dealing with people who refuse blame for what only themselves made them do wrong.

@Dawg:

Very little of any of that was directed at you.

“…we look for ways to “blame” ourselves for what “went wrong”…”

…Because we are expected to blame ourselves for anything that goes wrong, despite the obvious fact that much of what occurs in a person’s life, is actually chosen by others, or is a result of external ripples.

I wasn’t ranting at you for any of what you said. Part of one of your comments, and some of lefty’s, reminded me of a social trend i have observed, in which “everyone” (not really everyone, but for the sake of this comment) expects us to “take responsibility,” for things we are quite often not responsible for.

I don’t think i “interpreted” your comments at all, let alone “180 degrees from how they are.”

If you want to think “we’re stopping ourselves” from moving on, just because we can’t forgive someone… then i guess you haven’t encountered many unforgivable actions? Sometimes you have to just forgive yourself for knowing that the person is not worthy of forgiveness, and leave it at that. If forgiveness has any value, then i can’t justify slinging it at just any and everyone, just because people expect that. I will forgive those who deserve it, Only. I have no problem with never forgiving someone who does not deserve or seek it. I don’t think it’s wrong to hate someone for what they’ve done, when they don’t care if you never forgive them. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to spend any further energy on them, and if you ever catch yourself thinking about them again, you should immediately attempt to think of something else.

If you read what i wrote, you’ll see that i advised against “waiting” for someone to admit they are wrong. You knowing they are wrong, does not require their approval. If you forget about forgiving someone who doesn’t deserve it, then what is there to wait for? Refuse to think of them, and move on. That’s that.

I’m not sure which part of my comments could be misinterpreted as suggesting anyone wait for anything. That certainly isn’t what i said. If they want to be forgiven, you’ll know. Until then, be away from them, don’t think of them. They don’t exist. Assume it will be forever.

@Dawg:

Well, i didn’t mean to imply that you were advocating it, just that the particular “meme” seems to infiltrate subconscious thought throughout the populous, and becomes standardized via precedent and repetition. I think most people just parrot things they heard elsewhere, without really thinking about much of anything… and when you try to make them think about why they might be wrong about something, they tend to get offended and demonize you. It’s just par for the course.

Hate isn’t something i want. It’s something i simply cannot avoid feeling, sometimes, because of certain circumstances. I’m not careless or exaggerated with it. It’s just something i acknowledge and accept, because it can’t be another way. I’ve spent years trying to manipulate it into anything else, but it is what it is, and i’m tired of being left to carry the burden of attempting to not hate someone who deserves it, who doesn’t care if they are never forgiven.

So, when it’s deserved and can’t be altered, and i’m the only one who wants it to change, then it’s all on me, even if i don’t accept responsibility for the actions of someone else. Since i cannot just arbitrarily and artificially forgive such an epic, blatant transgression, especially since it is not valued or sought… then my only other choice is to accept that i hate someone who deserves it, and eliminate my own need to forgive them, since they don’t need or desire for me to do so, and are unwilling to alter anything they have wrought.

Hate can be quiet. It’s not anger. It’s not rage. It’s not fury. It’s something else.

Have you ever truly hated someone? There are very few, but at least 2 in particular, i would literally torture them in the most horribly elaborate ways i could possibly imagine, for literally eternity, were i able to do so. I would revel in their agony, as though it were oceans of heroin (i’ve never actually done heroin, but i’m assuming the high is awesome).

My only “resolution” is that there can be no resolution, and that i will have to find a way to live with hating someone who doesn’t care if i never forgive them, who made sure this is the only way it can be.

There will be no apology, there will be no forgiveness, there will be no anything, and if there is ever a chance encounter, there will be extreme action and no mercy, because that’s the way it was allowed to remain, despite my best efforts.

I can’t help but hate anyone who would leave me with such an immense, intense, everlasting complication, which literally infests every aspect of my life.

It’s like a terminal disease.

There is no “locking,” because there is no closure, because there is no change from the state of transgression that was initiated without valid justification. I cannot forgive what should not be forgiven. That’s just that. It’s unfortunate i have encountered this, but there isn’t anything i can do to change it. Believe me, i tried. But every moment of my efforts were wasted, and i resent every thought i thunk, and every breath i breathed, during that time. I can’t get it back, because someone else imposed something i could not avoid or alter. I am violated, and will not forgive.

That said, i do all i can to not “carry” the burden of hate. I don’t sit and stew in active seething hatred. It’s just not productive. It’s a waste.

@left22:

What do you mean you “don’t see?”

Maybe you’re looking for something that isn’t there, instead of what i’m actually saying?

You both “mentioned” something, which reminded me of something i have observed quite frequently, both elsewhere, and even “here.”

What’s to “see?” I even quoted the relevant parts of each of your mentions!

And where do you get this “either or situation” from?

WTF are you even talking about?

Again, you seem to be arguing against a stance you have erroneously assigned, which i have not taken.

When is ANYONE, EVER “told” that taking responsibility “negates the responsibility of the abuser!?”

NO ONE IS EVER TOLD THAT! You’re just making stuff up now!

I think that, because i had to figure it out on my own, the hard way, because it’s actually true, and is the opposite of what “people are told.”

We are told to forgive, despite the transgressor not caring whether s/he is forgiven.
We are told to “take responsibility for” how we feel, despite having extremely displeasing and detrimental circumstances IMPOSED UPON us, without being allowed a chance to choose to avoid that.

We are told, EXPECTED, to claim responsibility when anything goes wrong… even when it is someone else making a choice to cause wrongness, which exceeds our ability to prevent it.

All victims are blamed. This is the way of the world, and yet, people act like it’s not that way. But it is that way.

But, i guess since you deny Objectivity, and only your subjective reality exists, then since you “don’t see it,” then whatever it is you don’t see, must not be real, even if you are the only one who doesn’t see it.

I honestly think you are quite mistaken, and do not really know what you’re talking about.

I mean, come on dude… as if “taking responsibility for your recovery” just makes things miraculously work out, resulting in you having “zero impact.”

Get Real.

It had “zero impact,” because SHE WANTED TO GO!

The one who does not want the other to leave, is the one who suffers great impacts, not the one who says “i don’t want to be around you ever again.” When the person who wants to be away, gets to be away, they are HAPPY.

Why do i even have to spell this out?

How is it not blatantly obvious?

@Dawg:

You’re being too mystical. Life is quite real.

Hate isn’t always or only “something you do.” It’s not an action. I’m not doing the action part. That’s as far as i can mitigate it. I am unable to simply not feel particularly hurtful things that have been imposed upon me by choices others made, which is not my fault. I’m not “choosing to feel” or “choosing to hate,” i am not “doing hate.” I think you’re missing the point. It’s something i don’t feel required to act upon… but i do feel “compelled” to gain access to methods to impose, and compelled to impose great suffering on those who have made it impossible for me to not involuntarily experience hate for them.

These people know not to “encounter” me. Were they to do so, i am quite certain they would not get the opportunity to “revel in” or “dictate my emotions.” I would be doing the dictating, imposing, and reveling. I’m already “suicidal.” I wouldn’t mind trading my life for the opportunity to manifest incredible suffering for those people. Perhaps if my life wasn’t so ruined, i’d feel differently… but it is as it is, and not some other way, and it won’t be some other way just by telling myself things are different. Just like i can’t just not hate, just by telling myself i don’t. Lying to myself is not an acceptable or sustainable solution… and there isn’t a solution to remove the source of what involuntarily produces hate.

I realize you probably don’t understand that, but i have lived it. I know that we don’t always get to decide what we feel. Sometimes things just happen, people just do things, and we just feel what we feel, even if things go against what we want, and every ounce of effort we put forth. Perhaps you haven’t experienced impossibility in your life. I have. I hate accepting the unacceptable, versus needing the impossible. Neither choice is good, and there isn’t another one.

No amount of “adaptation” will return stereoscopic vision with depth perception, to one who has lost an eye. It’s not about hating the lost eye. It’s about how you see with only one. It’s about not having that other option to choose, anymore. It’s about needing something you had, but cannot replace. You don’t hate the lost eye. You hate what took it away… because there is nothing you can do to get it back, and you can’t see the way you did before. There is no “learning to modify the vision process.” The eye is gone. It would take science and medicine a lifetime of research, in order to devise a restorative solution. Meanwhile, you get to live without that eye, without the vision you need, without the ability to simply choose to be okay with the transgressions that resulted in your inability to properly see. Lifelong damage from someone who arbitrarily and needlessly caused it, refuses to admit wrongdoing, and does not care whether you forgive them… is not something i am capable of forgiving. That person, that cause, would have to at the very least, show me that forgiveness is valuable to them, even if it’s really not, to me, because the only thing that can have value is the returning of that eye. The eye is gone and forgiveness is irrelevant. Should i encounter the person who took my “eye,” i will surely spend my greatest efforts to succeed in removing both of theirs… whereas i would have forgiven them, had they expressed remorse, and communicated some semblance of consideration and value for the suffering they have caused me.

I have been severely damaged by someone who either doesn’t care, or actually wishes to cause my profound suffering. That is something i cannot, and will not forgive. That is something i will repay, “ten fold,” should i ever encounter the opportunity to do so. I might feel remorse, i might feel regret, i might feel torn apart that i had to devastate someone in such a manner… but it’s worth that, to me, to make them pay for what they’ve done. I’m going to suffer either way, no matter what. So i might as well at least try to get more-than-even. Otherwise, my passivity and silence, and every moment of energy spent on attempting to accept the unacceptable… equates to complicity. I cannot allow an enemy to create my complicity for their harmful actions against me. I cannot allow them to make me feel like their choices are my fault. Only MY choices are under my control, and therefore, only my choices are my fault. If i control someone else, i would have to be responsible for their actions. Any gamer knows we are responsible for what we control. Yes, sometimes the system sucks, but there are usually ways to control your avatar well enough to achieve your goals. Control freaks in real life, have found ways to control other actual people.

My “enemies” pretend i am responsible for their actions, while being responsible themselves, for creating profound suffering to impose upon my life, without my having any way to choose not to encounter that.

They would only “enjoy” my hatred from a distance. There are only so many things sustaining that fragile distance. They would not “enjoy” what they have wrought, from close up. So i don’t mind if they think everything is fine, until the moment it isn’t. The element of surprise is a valid and effective aspect of conflict. I know they haven’t truly won, even if they, and you, think they have. I know what they’ve got coming to them… as long as i decide to make those options available to myself. It’s if i do nothing, that they actually win.

And yes, it is “too late.” I’m too old and too damaged to start over effectively. I don’t need to “learn a better way.” Of course i am aware that better ways “exist,” but they are simply not available to me. So i must choose from what is available, or not choose at all, and simply drift toward the end.

It’s quite ironic that you use “people would shun the interwebs” as false justification for your incorrect statement. People DO shun the interwebs. Not all, but many still do. Many still use the phrase “do you believe everything you see on the internet?” Whether they’re right to shun, it does occur. Lots of people think that anything beyond “the old ways” is just frivolous and absurd. How dare anyone think that we need better ways for anything! “Things are only what you all made them!”

We are often expected to take blame for things we do not control, and could not avoid. I hate anyone who imposes unnecessary and detrimental conditions upon me, and then insists that it is not their fault, but actually mine, and demands that i claim to be responsible for it, and actually believe that i am. I hate them. They are worthy of my hate. I will impose unbearable circumstances upon them, in return for those they have imposed upon me, should i ever encounter the chance.

If you know [D] is the right thing for you, but certain people make it so you can only choose between [A] and [B], but then they blame you for “your choice,” when either/and/or both [A] and [B] cause results you never wanted… that’s what i’m talking about. That happens constantly in this world.

There is a “social trend” to limit a person’s choices to only options that can cause a negative result, and then blame them for “their choice” in choosing, from what was allowed to be available, something that resulted negatively… when in fact, “their choice” should have been something that was disallowed by the person imposing blame and demanding the chooser take responsibility… for a choice they were “forced” to make, via prevention of other better options, by those forcing a choice.

If you don’t see it, it’s because you’re not looking.

I’m honestly not “that” intelligent. I would classify myself as a sub-genius. And, due to my lack of formal education and various life problems, i’m sure my ability to USE what intelligence i Do have, has been greatly impacted. I just had a thought occur to me, earlier today, in which i realized that i’ve met quite a lot of people who seem to know much less than i do, and are much less capable of complex thought… but i didn’t even graduate high school. Sure, i made it halfway through my senior year and got my GED immediately after dropping out due in part to severe depression (which was actually event-driven)… and sure, i’ve seized every opportunity i could, to learn the things that i thought were both interesting and useful… but, apparently, i’m not smart enough to “make it.”

Anyway… something i have indeed frequently encountered, is people who are just absolutely determined to read what they want to read, instead of what i’m actually saying.

And you are still advocating that i should claim responsibility for what others have done to me, which is the reason i posted in this thread in the first place. “There is a social trend in which people seem to expect the victim to claim responsibility for the transgressor’s impositions.”

And that is exactly what you are advocating, by insisting that the solution is to decide to feel differently, to change yourself instead of retaliating against wrongdoings. To remain silent and complicit with the manifestations of those who would exploit our human vulnerabilities, harming us greatly if it gets them what they want… and we should just be okay with it. I disagree with being okay with it. I don’t disagree about choosing not to focus on it. I actually stated that i don’t focus on it, several times, but you’re still insisting that i do, and that i am “doing hate,” rather than simply experiencing an inevitable sense of disdain, contempt, loathing, and disgust… so much that it feels like my blood is literally boiling, and i will explode… if i do continue to think of it. And so, since i hate feeling that way, especially when there’s nothing i can (immediately) do about it, the correct choice is to manage it via coping skills and distractions. I don’t “focus on it.” I’m not saying anyone should. But you’re sitting there swearing i do. It’s utterly inexplicable.

Clearly, casting pearls before swine (or writing words that get ignored, to one who reads what they want, instead of what the words actually mean), is also not a good thing to waste time on. I’ve made my point, whether anyone “admits it” or not. I don’t need to wait for anyone to validate what i already know is correct.