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Variance

by clevername

It just blows my mind, how so many people of all different walks of life, from all over the world, with fundamentally different and incompatible views/mindsets/perspectives/religions/etc. …

 

All find too much wrong with the world, too much wrong with life in this world, that they often feel they would rather just die, than continue living.

 

People say life is beautiful… but our world today is so ugly (arguably, primarily due to the people in it), that all kinds of different people who otherwise have nothing in common, are seeing so much wrong, with so many things, in so many ways, that a group of incompatible people has been united merely by the desire to exit.

 

Life is supposed to be valuable… but we live in a world where far too many people feel it isn’t.

 

Despite all the variance, i find it reasonably justifiable to proclaim that “most people are miserable.”

 

Living conditions all over the world have become too unfavorable, for a variety of different people, in a variety of different ways.

 

The worst part, i think, is how this widespread misery is actually both a requirement and a byproduct, for and of enabling a relatively few lucky people to live in fantastical luxury.

 

Or maybe the worst part is that there seems to be so little we can do about it.

 

Life should not suck. If it does, someone is doing something wrong… and it’s not necessarily the person suffering those wrongs, who has caused them.

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RealTalk30 9/25/2013 - 12:45 pm

Very true! Good point!

And good to see you clever! 🙂

Stendarr's ***** 9/25/2013 - 12:55 pm

(I’m not feeling well, so I’ll keep it simple, I may come back later to elaborate)

The “wrong” in the world is perpetuated primarily by the people in power, I don’t think it’s fair to blame the majority of people.

Most people seem to actually enjoy life and give it value. Perhaps you surround yourself with so much negativity that you forget that depression, hopelessness and suicidal ideation is a vast minority? If everyone was miserable society wouldn’t function as it does.

clevername 9/25/2013 - 1:08 pm

I think lots of those people who seem to be just fine, are actually secretly miserable… but admitting to misery is ‘taboo.’ Very few people are actually happy.

I don’t surround myself with negativity. I do not control my own environment. I do not control other people in my environment, nor do i choose whom to allow to cause effects which impact me. Not entirely, anyway. I realized that i shouldn’t associate with anyone i can’t trust not to do something to negatively impact me. I’ve eliminated everyone i am able to eliminate, and those who remain despite my preference, continue to negatively impact me, and there is not anything non-destructive i can do about it.

I can see how you might think “i’m the problem,” but that’s so typical… and i’m trying not to be counter-insulting about it.

I think that most people are miserable, but only people like us (in the only ways any of us here at SP are even similar) ever actually admit it. Most unhappy people are afraid to admit they are unhappy, for fear of expected social consequences: no one likes to be around miserable, hopeless, depressed people… and so by admitting it, you are volunteering to be shunned by those you’ve become dependent upon, or attached to. The last thing any miserable person needs is more loss and ostracism. This is where people’s minds shut down, they stop thinking or questioning, and they just go along, to get along… which is actually /wrong/… but they are unable to handle the burden of doing what’s right. The wrong is too much and too widespread, and presents in far too many ways. Those who would fight it, are too few, and too weak.

Anyway… the point of the OP was that it blows my mind how so many different people hate being alive, for so many different reasons. Some people actually consider themselves “lucky” to be compliant slaves, allowed to ‘comfortably’ work their lives away, perpetuating the same system which dictate which choices we are allowed to make, and casts out anyone who would change it: aka anyone who sees that it is wrong.

PainNlife 9/25/2013 - 1:09 pm

I believe the world is beautiful…it is aesthetically pleasing…. The color of the trees and sunsets….the color of water….the way the cool breeze feels during a hot day….how the snow looks when it covers everything….the rainbow of flowers in the spring all these things are good to look at….but life? Life is a much uglier reality….Starvation, murder, rape, kidnapping, racism, oppression, pain, discrimination, evilness, destruction, war all these things are a reality in life….there are good things as well but they hail in comparison to the bad things…..A loving heart can never compete with a soul full of hatred IMO….

Most problems can be solved by removing all the personal feelings people have about each other and focusing on the problem….Do you know there is enough food produced to make every human on the planet obese? yet we have scores of people dying from hunger each year….AIDS is a manufactured virus and so are most of the cancers….hell most of the known diseases today have been created…. wars aren’t because of serious real conflicts between nations….they are instigated conflicts by people who have something to gain…. Prisons shouldn’t be as full as they are now….but when you let business and incarceration intertwine corruption is never far behind…. some judges have stocks in privatized prisons…so you think you’re going to get a lighter sentence because of your lawyer? Companies like Monsanto are selling seeds that don’t reproduce new seeds so at the end of the season farmers have to buy new seeds and these bitches are so evil and greedy they even have patents on seeds as if they invented them… We have to pay to work….which is so fucking ridiculous….you have to PAY to stay employed…..its disgusting….

I could go on forever about the abundance of conflicts in this world but the point is most of the are man made….Yes humans will always have some sort of problem but most of them can be easily eliminated and life wouldn’t be so ugly….but nope…TPTB doesn’t want that….they want absolute control authority and power over everybody….

The one option…the one thing they have NO control over is whether we want to play their game or not….they can make guns illegal they can make ropes illegal they can make anything that can be used to kill yourself illegal and we can still find a way to do it ….So if my choice is to play their game or not play at all….fuck it I choose the latter

lorax 9/25/2013 - 1:12 pm

It’s about choice. Perhaps some of the people who seem “fine” are actually miserable, secretly, as all isolated atoms must be quite lonely while pretending to be other than what they are, but many almost certainly are not miserable all the time. For the most part, I think people who have found things that enrich their lives with meaning, can be quite content with what they have.

RealTalk30 9/25/2013 - 1:17 pm

Life IS beautiful!!

*throws flower peddles*

chancetherapper 9/25/2013 - 1:25 pm

I think it is also perspective. I’m sure a lot of people realize that the world is fucked up but still finds the positive in life.

lorax 9/25/2013 - 1:28 pm

When you say the world is fucked up, from what I understand, that’s a hugely anthropocentric thing to say. The civilization we’ve built is fucked up. We’re part of nature, and not all of the world is as fucked up as our little corner of it. “The world,” is one of my pet-peeves.

clevername 9/25/2013 - 1:29 pm

I don’t think i said that “everyone” is miserable. I said most. And not all of the at least 51% of all humans, will admit being miserable.

Obviously there are some people, like those we are constantly shown on the TV and in movies, who are not miserable at all. But i’m also quite certain that we are shown such things to make us think that “most people are happy,” which is in fact false.

If only those who have what they need and some of what they want, are “happy” (or content), then i retain my position that “most people” are in fact miserable, due to most people not having what they need, or much, if any, of what they want.

But we’re talking billions of people on earth. Sure, there might be up to 2 Billion happy/content/fine people… but that still leaves a majority who are not, many of whom are definitely miserable.

First world middle and upper class is not “most people.” But they sure as hell seem to want everyone to think they are.

lorax 9/25/2013 - 1:32 pm

I think it’s most telling that people in tiny isolated tribes are very happy, despite having very little of what people in cities might consider, “needs,” or “wants.” Maybe it’s about valuations and the approach one takes to living that’s more relevant than how the majority feel.

clevername 9/25/2013 - 1:35 pm

And since people are being argumentative:

I dig nature. I think there is plenty of aesthetically pleasing stuff that naturally occurs as part of earth. Some animals are fascinating.

But “the world” includes, and is largely dominated by, billions of humans who exist within various constructs and paradigms.

‘The World’ includes the fucked-up-humans part, and since i am also human, and have experienced becoming fucked up, by other fucked up humans doing fucked-up-human things…

I believe i am justified in saying “the world is fucked up.” It is what it is. It already happened, and i’ll only get to experience it as me, just this once. This once is already ruined. Therefore: the world is fucked up. We could start fixing it, if we could get enough people to understand the problems, in order to devise acceptable solutions… but that’ll never happen in my lifetime, because there are too many other people obfuscating that process. Therefore, there is no fixing what’s wrong, and so it will remain wrong, aka “fucked up,” until i am dead.

But yeah. Nature, sans humans, can be pretty damn beautiful. But as my experience of life indicates that it is comprised almost entirely of meaningless suffering and compulsory perpetuation of both psychological enslavement and physical prisons… no, life is not beautiful. It could be, it should be, but it really isn’t… for most people.

PainNlife 9/25/2013 - 1:38 pm

Hell even some of the people on T.V with millions of dollars aren’t happy….most of them abuse drugs and use other methods to cope with their pain…

But Lorax, I disagree….humans effect everything! from the thickest jungles to the deepest oceans….what we do effects and affects everything….when we dump toxic waste? some organism suffers….landfills? some organism suffers….factories with air pollution? some organism suffers…..I think you should watch “the lorax” on YT to see what I mean…

RenoBill 9/25/2013 - 1:42 pm

Good to have you back clevername, I enjoy your posts. I still find beauty in nature, mountains, sunrises, thunderstorms, etc. But you’re right that conditions have uneccesarily become unfavorable for many. I think that is primarily due to politics and corporate as well as personal greed. Even the medical community which should be about improving and maintaining the quality of life has become corrupted by the profit motive. Most pharmaceuticals are more harmful than helpful. Just look at the tv commercials for all these new and ‘wonderful’ drugs. They spend two thirds of the commercial highlighting the risks and side effects, at least the ones they will admit. I have to highlight this since a drug I was inappropriately prescribed has caused me an enormous amount of problems. I think a majority of people appear to be happy, but I would bet that a large number of them are hiding anxiety and/or depression and just trudging along trying to fit in, or just get by, or because they have people to support. The world, outside of nature is pretty screwed up. And even nature, thanks to mankind is becoming more and more endangered.

lorax 9/25/2013 - 1:49 pm

There is no world outside of nature. That’s what I’m getting at. Just look at volcanoes if you want to see a factory churning C02 into the atmosphere. I’m not saying what people do is necessarily a good thing, but people have a distinctly human ability to think they’re the big man on the totem pole that the sun revolves around. That’s largely the core of the problem.

joinel 9/25/2013 - 3:15 pm

this post is depressing.anyways humans are humans,society is society.whether you are poor or rich,in usa or ethiopia.white or black or intermixed.and all peoples despite thier so called differences can be suicidal tells you that peoples are all fucking the same.but those cruel media divide as so much/by only concentrating in our difference/ that we can’t see we are all fucking the same.and your post reflects that.you are no different than anyone else it is just the media told you that you are.now they are enjoying it.because those things that they told you you are different than others are actually what they have more than you so that you can always be under them psychologycally.they are players.you are the game.enjoy

RealTalk30 9/25/2013 - 3:18 pm

I thought the topic of this post was gonna lean towards the fact that we are (in a way) united here on SP. kinda in relation to the last post I put up! lol

joinel 9/25/2013 - 3:27 pm

i love prefer peoples who are straight even on sex:)

joinel 9/25/2013 - 3:27 pm

i prefer peoples who are straight even on sex:)

clevername 9/25/2013 - 3:49 pm

Actually RT, that was only part of the point. The “variance” part was the primary motivator for the post, which i don’t feel i adequately articulated.

There are so many very different people, who see so much of the same and different stuff wrong with life in this world, who want to kill themselves… or rather, don’t really “want” to, but feel it is “the only way out…”

On a fundamental, physiological, psychological, value and rights related level, we’re all the same. But we’re also all different, some of us more disparately than others…

And something about how, despite most of us being otherwise incompatible people, we still come here for the same reason(s), as well as different ones.

The variance… the multitude of wildly different, often incompatible perspectives, all of which are still arriving at the same crossroads: stay or go; leaning toward ‘go,’ for so many different reasons, from so many different perspectives and combinations of experiences…

There are so many different ways to arrive upon the precipice of doom… so many different ways of perceiving the ending of one’s own life…

We’re all here because we don’t want our lives to be what they are. And there’s only ever so much anyone can really do about that.

It’s not just one type of person or some specific demographic. Life sucks for all kinds of different people, all around the world. But we’re all people, no matter how different we might be from each other… and all people have limits to how much BS they can tolerate without worthwhile gains… or even with them.

It was more about the variance among the suicidals, rather than whether or not we’re actually united… which feels rather arbitrary, to me. We don’t need to unite over the topic or concept of suicide. We need to unite over the topic and concept of fixing what’s wrong with the world. But people are too different from each other, to ever agree on how to fix it. I suppose we’d all prefer to just die, right? lol…

Stendarr's ***** 9/25/2013 - 5:28 pm

“I think lots of those people who seem to be just fine, are actually secretly miserable… but admitting to misery is ‘taboo.’ Very few people are actually happy”

This is an assumption. Is there any evidence to contradict their supposed external happiness? You can’t look into the minds of others, you can only gather information from what they will admit and how you perceive them on a superficial level. And from what they admit and show, most people a generally not miserable. I’m not arguing they’re all ponies and rainbows happy, but they’re not sad enough to the point where it affects their life.

I don’t know where you live, but my work demands me to be surrounded by people for most of the day. From what I observe most people do not seem miserable, perhaps it’s your location?

clevername 9/25/2013 - 5:54 pm

“This is an assumption.”

And?

Did i not clearly use the words “I THINK” at the beginning of that statement?

Sometimes i just like to say what i think. I think what i think, for lots of reasons, and it would be far too taxing and tedious to make an exhaustive and itemized list of every reason for everything i think, and all the interrelations among them.

“Is there any evidence to contradict their supposed external happiness?”

There quite often is evidence to contradict the outward facade that is projected by those who know they must act certain ways around other people. This is something not everyone can see… but i can see it. I don’t always nail the details, but i can often see that something isn’t right.

In my own household, everyone who lives here (4 other people) is an example of this. They are each miserable (to varying and non-static degrees), but none of them go around announcing it to the world, and all of them have trouble admitting it, even to each other, despite that “each other” (within the household) are their closest confidants.

I have also observed this outside my household, in “random” strangers, to whom i bear no relation. Everyone has a “people face.”

You’re wrong. I CAN “look into the minds of others.” I never knew what “profiling” was, or that i was doing it naturally, until in recent years it became a more visible and openly discussed topic.

I can tell you what i think, what i experience, and how i can “see into” people, when i interact with them in person… and most of the people i’ve encountered in recent times, are not happy. Some are content.

I almost wanted to say: “women are notorious for this…” but it’s guys too. Men aren’t supposed to let on that anything is wrong; no one likes complainers…

Do you happen to work in a place where people go to spend money? I suppose if you surround yourself with people who have money to spend, then you might not notice how miserable the rest of the world is. But even still, lots of people “believe in god,” and so they don’t mind being miserable now, since they’re convinced they’ll go to heaven when they die. What’s a little misery, as a gateway to eternal bliss? Those types of miserable people don’t show it either.

And then there’s the factor of people who get to have sex regularly. I bet those people don’t feel miserable. But take away that one thing, and catch them when they think no one can see…

Like i had to tell someone else, not so long ago: what you think you’re showing, is not necessarily the same thing i will see. I can see things you don’t realize you reveal. Most people don’t seem to understand this concept, but even i am not immune to it. We all show or reveal things we don’t necessarily intend for anyone to see… but it’s visible when the audience knows what to look for.

Lots of miserable people default to dissociation and cognitive dissonance. It doesn’t mean the issue is gone… they’re just ignoring it, or unable to process it. I classify that as a type of misery… because it’s apparently so bad that they can’t even deal with it. They’re lucky to be able to simply dissociate or ignore or block it out. I can’t really do that. I usually cannot help but to feel, to perceive… and it’s not something i’m “doing.” It’s just a part of what i am, and it’s almost always on. I can’t turn it off. That’s part of why i don’t like being around people. I can /feel/ them. I can’t even approach an adequate or proper articulation of this experience.

lorax 9/25/2013 - 6:16 pm

“And then there’s the factor of people who get to have sex regularly. I bet those people don’t feel miserable. But take away that one thing, and catch them when they think no one can see…”

That would actually make me incredibly miserable. Different strokes for different folks, though. It’s hard to discuss topics like this because the quality of being miserable is often a psychological phenomenon that appears despite whatever circumstances a person finds themselves in. There is a large subjective gray area that allows for a variety of different ways to react to the same set of factors, and in reality, it’s all largely tangential. I don’t get upset about it and I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m trying to do the same thing you are (@clevername): “Sometimes i just like to say what i think.” I think that’s what everyone is doing here – there’s no reason to get upset about it.

clevername 9/25/2013 - 6:21 pm

Tangential indeed. That’s part of why i often dislike even attempting to discuss it.

Scar504 9/25/2013 - 7:43 pm

“Life is supposed to be valuable.” There’s no reason to believe that — indeed, its being taken as true, or at minimum probable, is a curious sort of illness, of which only humans seem to suffer, and is contrary to immediate reality to the extent that I can only surmise those who suffer from it are either mentally unwell or profoundly fortunate in their ignorance.

Perhaps I’m mistaken. Perhaps you’ve received some sort of notice life neglected to spare me the dignity of sending. If so, be so kind as to oblige me with its contents — I’d much like to have it in print, should it ever slip my mind, that life is meant to be valuable.

clevername 9/25/2013 - 7:59 pm

@scar:

The secret is in the definition of “suppose.”

Life is “supposed” to be valuable.

Though i suppose i should make the distinction of sentient, intelligent life… rather than just life in general.

Also:

On one hand, it feels weird…
But OTOH, it feels normal, typical, expected, that there is so much of what seems to be resistance to what i attempt to express.

I’ve never been sure whether the problem is what is being expressed, or who is expressing it… but it is the same problem i’ve always faced, throughout the entirety of my existence.

I’m built for identifying problems. I can’t help but to notice them, when that perception is available to me. I feel compelled to point out what i think is wrong, and attempt to express it as well as i can. This is often regarded as a mistake, or a character flaw, or me just being negative.

I frequently encounter the distinct and undeniable sensation, when interacting with others, that’s as if they disapprove of my existence, and think i should not… and it’s often seemingly connected to them not wanting to know what i think is wrong, or that anything is wrong… and i’m almost never sure whether it’s that something is wrong, or that it’s me saying it.

No one loves a critic, and i am about as critical as they come. But i’m also quite tolerant and reasonable and accepting of people and their flaws… even when i can’t help but notice, and feel compelled to point them out.

Idk. It’s whatever. I’m just another person who should not have been born, who should hold myself accountable for correcting the mistakes made by others, and eliminate myself from the equation. Then, i won’t know anything is wrong, and everyone else can get back to pretending it isn’t.

Scar504 9/25/2013 - 8:08 pm

@Clevername

That’s true. “Supposed” can be used to describe the way something ought to be, but also the way it is typically viewed (i.e. supposed) as being.

By the way, I didn’t read any of the comments. Do you mind tell me what it is people don’t want you to express?

stellaeric 9/25/2013 - 9:26 pm

Ah. “Supposed” is a word I don’t like, “valuable” is another. Both imply necessarily subjective value judgments. I do feel that since value is not an intrinsic property, we could perhaps say “life *is* valuable”, just because sentient life of a particular description seems to be important to the majority of the human population.

It would be interesting if we could prove the statement that “most people are miserable” by quantifying/defining happiness. What makes people happy? The conditions for happiness seem so subjective, it complicates matters. Also, as misery is most likely not a constant state – for what proportion of time do you have to be in misery to be able to declare yourself miserable? In addition “misery” and “happiness”, although not quite polar opposites, are a little bit far apart on what could be seen as a sliding scale, what about other states like apathy? How do we account for them? I am inclined to revise the statement to “most people are not as happy as they could be” (always try and tell the truth) but that is not terribly meaningful.

Sorry, I’m not saying that your argument or opinion isn’t valid. I’m just inclined to be very precise and it gets compulsive when I’m not at my best. I don’t really know if any of the above is very useful at all.

Hmm. You know, I’m not terribly fond of human society. On the other hand though, I wonder how it would look from an outsider’s point of view. Would they see as much wrong with it as we do?

Igor A. 9/26/2013 - 10:32 am

Good stuff clevername. This post goes right to my bookmarks.

I’m also very sensitive, and from what I can feel, most people ARE miserable and often trying too hard to prove otherwise.

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