I read that in an article about online depression resources once. The author’s point was that suicidal people should not be helping suicidal people. My initial reaction was anger and wanting to tell the author she had no clue – the old “you just don’t understand” argument that we all love to end arguments with.
Over the last year or two, I’ve been reading along here, commenting less & less, posting almost never, until I realized that there is truth to what that author said, for a number of reasons.
First there’s the obvious “physician heal thyself” argument. If we give such good advice, then why are we all stuck here at the bottom? Obviously our own advice doesn’t work for us, so it’s hypocritical to think it would magically work for others. Likewise, any advice you hear from someone on this forum is immediately proven to be ineffective, based on the suicidal person saying it.
Next, which the article didn’t touch on, there’s the question of whether we can find encouragement, peace or even techniques here that would help us finally go through with suicide. Once again the same argument exists, but in this case it would be “suicide physician kill thyself.” My point being, nobody here is any sort of expert on dying since we are all alive and failures at killing ourselves.
Summary. People here, or at any other suicide forum whether it’s support based or pro-suicide, are the last people who should be dishing out advice. Literally anywhere else, where people live happily by their own words (like suppose a spiritual forum, fitness, religion or anything positive) would be a better place to get advice on being happy because there’s a greater chance that those people actually are happy. And conversely, if you want advice on how to die, the only people you can trust are the dead.
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Makes sense to me. I should definitely go hang out with the happy folks!
For real! I used to be a member of a Christian music forum even though I’m not religious. I just like a few Christian bands. The vibe there was really positive and it kept me going through tough times. If you can find any happy people, definitely hang out with them as much as possible! (By the way, yes this bit of advice comes to you from a suicidal person, so don’t bother haha)
i agree with all of that but its not completely necessarily true. im just here to know im not alone with how i feel. to know im not the only one thats feels left behind in a world going forward. well with the way people act these days i feel the world is actually going backwards but thats my opinion. and as far as the advice. i only give advice that actually helped me get better. and when im not giving advice im telling my own little story so they know that i do actually relate to how they feel and im not just spouting off words because it annoys me when people say “you dont know how i feel” well you dont know my life so how can you say that.
The thing is, very few ‘normies’ will actually seriously countenance the idea of ending your life as a choice. The assumption is that since life is tolerable and worthwhile for them, that must always be the case for everyone at all times. So there’s no way to get reliably ‘unbiased’ input.
I post here as a way of trying to process my thoughts. Sometimes I get useful input and advice, and I appreciate it, though I rarely act on it. Mostly I just feel a little less alone and helpless knowing that someone else has understood at least some part of what I’m experiencing, instead of just feeling judged. It helps me process it moment to moment.
If you want to fix your life, there are plenty of more specific places to look for help and advice. If instead you’re just trying to deal with the overwhelming, confusing, and contradictory experiences involved with thinking about ending your life…not so much. For me this is a middle place, between pro-exit focused boards and positive solutions focused self-help forums.
I think that you and the author of the article you mentioned have a point. Like nearly everything worth considering, it’s a nuanced problem.
The importance of knowing that there are people going through the same or similar struggles as you (as Hope Dream Love mentioned) can hardly be overstated. Not just knowing, that much is common sense, but seeing the thoughts produced by those struggles articulated into written form and shared with others in a similar frame of mind…. it’s a strangely comforting sort of shared loneliness or pain.
That said, the grouping of suicidal or depressed people evidently risks a spiral of negativity that is reinforced by the community itself. I’ve seen reflections of both of these aspects on this site.
But you’re specifically addressing advice. Sometimes you’ll find a post by someone who was previously suicidal, someone who was a previous forum user or who stumbled upon it later, in which case the advice could be quite useful. Or you have a strange case like mine, someone who has never been suicidal but nonetheless finds some solidarity in the community and simply pokes their head in to make a comment here and there.
I don’t believe that the advice is ineffectual to begin with, as people can have knowledge of what they should do but simply don’t do themselves. The idea is very different from real action in the world, and it’s entirely possible that the receiver of the advice could act it out in a manner that the person offering the advice did not, since restrictions vary from person to person (of course, so do solutions).
This type of forum has its purpose and benefits, but I do agree with you that a more generally positive avenue, preferably in the “real” world, is likely far more productive to pursue. If for no other reason than to avoid an addictive loop of steeping in an atmosphere of misery.
shhhhhhhhhhhhh
Personal afflictions/vices don’t necessarily diminish one’s credibility, nor negate the potential effectiveness of their advice. Sadly, many psychologists have just that insight; their course determined by their own wars, it’s often a means to better understand themselves and others. The empathy gleaned through personal struggle now a valuable tool, reserved for those who’ve had the misfortune of trundling down the same dark path.
Think of the affable general doctor, promoting relentlessly with hard, irrefutable data which stings like a cattle prod in a bid to stop the patient smoking, while going through a pack a day themselves because the stress is too much.
Or the local, somewhat abrupt and dim-witted mechanic (who always overcharges) displaying an uncharacteristic care for a customer’s automobile. Advising the importance of regular (free) tyre pressure checks to avoid costly, unnecessarily repairs down the line. While they themselves drive on thread bare Michelins; a tyre failure on the treacherous drive through the winding, narrow mountain roads, an hour each way to the garage, would doubtlessly be catastrophic. All this because they care more about you than their own hopelessly tragic life.
Ah, I’ve forgot my train of though and there’s more I wanted to say. Something about evidence based approach and bias. Objectivity vs subjectivity. But I think this tirade is more than enough to make my position clear.
Thanks for the read, it’s something I ponder relentlessly over. Glad someone else thinks along similar lines.
Also, the notion relies upon the assumption that depression is defined by static, rigid characteristics, and we know that not to be the case. Rather the fluid nature of the illness and variance of symptoms often transfers into genuine care for other’s welfare at certain times, as well as a seemingly uncharacteristic demeanour indistinguishable from those not afflicted.
Depression/suicidal thoughts are often, for numerous reasons, secret wars (this site arguably a case in point) If there’s no discernible distinction between perceived behavior it renders the stance that one is incapable of being there/offering advice as immaterial as there’s no display of bias to influence.
I think this is where I was headed with impact of perceived bias, and the idea that one can no longer be objective and offer advice. Frankly, it’s somewhat insulting for an article to insinuate and further marginalise an at risk group. But really, was the point of the article to promote rigorous debate, or merely inflammatory and self serving?
You better articulated what I was thinking.
Thank you, NeverKnown
If you only spend time talking to people who are depressed and suicidal, maybe I’d agree. To be constantly reminded that you want to kill yourself every moment of the day can’t be healthy. However, this isn’t a tight-knit community of people here actively trying to push each other towards harmful behavior. It’s a bunch of people suffering, from all over, just trying to reach out to someone who might understand them. And sometimes that just what a person needs.
And everyone has different types of pain. So I might have insight on one type of situation, but have no idea what to do in another. Not everyone is depressed and suicidal for the same reason. It’s not fair to discredit any and all advice given here. Nobody here claims to be able to cure you, but if I know how to make one small aspect of my life better, I’d be happy to share that with others.
Plus it’s nice to see that you’re not alone, that other people are struggling. And it feels impactful when people who are near-suicide themselves tell you they understand what you’re going through and not to give up. They’re not being paid to do so, they’re struggling themselves, and they don’t even know you.
Plus I feel that it’s easier to be more honest here. Telling someone in real life isn’t always safe. I don’t want my life ruined even worse. I don’t want police coming over trying to save me from myself, making me miss time from work and school, leaving a permanent stain on my record, instead of actually helping me with the issues that made me suicidal in the first place. Not saying all resources are like that; sometimes someone in your life can be really helpful, but not everyone wants to take that risk. Plus, there’s no pressure here. You can just vent if you want, with little fear, instead of keeping it bottled up.
I mean, sure, hanging out with happy people helps me feel happy. …Until I come home and have to face all the stress and work and fear and arguments. Just because they’re happy doesn’t mean they can help. Not everyone has good resources. This is just one resource.
I’d have to disagree, just because someone can’t take their own advice, doesn’t mean it can’t be valuable or helpful to others. Take for example the parent who smokes, tells their kids not to. It appears hypocritical but the parent has an addiction to smoking and finds it hard to quit which is precisely why they want to spare their children from that suffering.
People come here for many reasons, sometimes just to chat with others (for fun), other times to vent about their life and yes also for legit advice on suicide. Ultimately people will choose to do what they most want to do. If they’re determined to die, there is little that can be said to deter them. Others only feel suicidal because they can’t solve the problems in their lives and that’s where advice from others can be helpful.
And often times going elsewhere for support like religion just puts a band-aid on their problems and doesn’t deal with their specific problems. In those cases, it is much better to seek a professional/shrink.
But the bottom line here, sites like this can offer more than just what you mentioned in your posts. The only thing this site can’t provide is a discussion on methods, which I have mixed feelings about but I understand where they’re coming from.
I don’t agree, I think this site as an outlet can be helpful, let’s say you’re a chronic alcoholic who seeks help whose advice would bear more fruit an addiction specialist whose teetotal or former alcoholic who knows every trick in the book concerning your disease. It would have to be the latter.