Today had an argument with a “pro lifer”. I thought you had a “right to life” by default. She mistakenly thought “the right to die” abuses the “right to life” and when I threw the analogy at her of a cancer patient suffering on end to just wait to die with pain, she pointed to the 0.001 correlated samples of cancer patients eventually getting better. I rolled my eyes and told her to study modal logic and walked off. What can we learn from this?
I heard about “pro life” activism and immediately laughed. Apparently these “pro life” groups are rising to an anti-thesis to the “right to die” activists. What bothers me the most is how “pro lifers” are the main cause of people not getting the help they need to die with dignity and mistake “the right to die”. To them, life is inherently sacred, and one should suffer till the day one dies. I find it quite easy to see their viewpoints as banal and it appears oxymoronic to suggest a path of “pro life” when everyone is born with the right to live. And by that same token, pro-lifers( to mention the majority of them have never been on life’s bad side), are the reason people with pain cannot get euthanised humanely with their family at hand.
I am getting more and more impatient with stupidity of people around me and fallacious reasoning of positive thinking cults. It can all be traced back to emotiveness instead of empirical objectivism.
That doesn’t mean euthanasia is “right” or should be “considered” but that that option is the individuals choice and no one should have the right to interfere! And yes, neither should men with white suits!
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You’ll find that they’re pretty much all Christians who think the body is a gift from god and it cannot be tampered with in any way except to continue to keep it alive. Pain, suffering, misery is never a factor for them.
Most of these people were brainwashed into their beliefs as children, many of them are mentally ill and they are all close-minded idiots who refuse to consider any other perspective nor can they be swayed by reason.
They need to be exposed for who and what they really are, a force of retrogression, superstition, insanity standing in the way of rational people and progress. Their views should be kept out of public policy. They’re the same group of imbeciles who force women to have babies they don’t want or can’t afford.
The Right-to-Die movement needs to fight harder to have the religious lunatics excluded from being involved in the debate. The vast majority of humans have the basic sense to understand that to Euthanize an animal that is suffering is the moral and humane thing to do. It is even more logical to do the same for humans who even have the ability to talk and express how much they’re suffering and their desire for death.
So who the hell are these people to stand in the way of anyone ending their live and being free from their torturous existence? While the process has been very slow we are winning the argument, as shown by the legalization of Euthanasia in more countries. But we still have a long way to go.
No one asked to be born into this world, they shouldn’t be forced to keep living a life they don’t want. Not to mention that because it isn’t legalized, people who are suicidal are forced to turn to highly dangerous, unreliable methods, which they sometimes survive and end up even worse off than before.
We need to demand that our politicians change the laws to allow Euthanasia for anyone who is certain they want to end their life. Perhaps it should be limited to people 10 years or older when kids can learn to think independently but we should give exceptions for children who suffered a lot and no longer want to continue.
Fortunately Christianity is dying in the West, in a generation Christians will be a minority, so we’ll remove religion out of politics and it’ll be easier to legalize Euthanasia at that point. Till then, we have to simply continue to push for change.
I completely agree with you, but the lowest age I would feel comfortable letting people choose to die is 21. (Exceptions of course for incurable physical suffering) This would give young people a chance to try to improve things/see if life gets better or more time to determine that they truly don’t want to live.
I wouldn’t want depressed young kids and teenagers opting out of life before they’ve had a chance to truly experience it. Choosing to die should not be impulsive or something to be taken lightly.
But I definitely agree that all adults should have the right to die. It’s sickening that we don’t and that people are against it.
I agree with Lifelong Loser here as well. I do find “drawing the line” important when someone is on the verge of emotional response. I believe in “talking anybody out” of the option of euthanasia, but NOT restraining them. They should still have a free choice in their lives. It is, however, unpardonable, not to give someone a pro-life perspective instead when you can see the person just have a bad day. I have many times caught teenagers in this pit and helped them out of it.
It is hard not to come across as 2-faced when giving people hope, yet believing the the antecedent could also be the better option; death.
But one should remember, that even when “death” might be a better option, that doesn’t mean one should go and do something stupid. There are many people who might get hurt in the process.
I am very much inspired by clipped-wings, who in the midst of suffering, can still keep on going. She lives with chronic pain, depression. Various conditions, and she keeps going and can see hope amid of suffering.
I believe that hope can be a choice in spite of suffering( and that a solution can most of the time be acquired). But if not, that is a loss of a potential; but should still be the individuals decision.
Lifelong,
Thanks and I’m glad all three of us agree. As for your point about age, some kids have suffered extreme abuse including mental, physical and sexual, usually at the hands of their evil parents or relatives and they don’t want to live.
Who are we to tell them they can’t end their life except when we say so? It’s the same kind of paternalism and patronizing attitude we get from the religious nutjobs who are trying to stop adults from making that same decision.
Yes I agree with the both of you that we don’t want kids to throw away their life recklessly because they had a bad day or felt depressed. So we should have a process where they’re given time to reconsider, say after a month or so but make exceptions in dire circumstances.
Let’s not forget we live in the real world where kids who are suffering cannot be taken to a magical paradise where everything is fine for them. Just like for ourselves, if we hate our lives, there isn’t a fairy godmother who will save us. Either we sink or we swim in this life on our own and very few people will help us.
It is no different for kids and I’d say it’s even worse since we grown-ups can protect ourselves/fight back against vile people or move out/change our situation. Children are stuck, so this would be their only real way out and there have been children who have committed suicide because their situation was intolerable.
And let’s just they frivolously threw their life away, so what? Who are we to judge? It is their right to do so as much as it is ours if we did the same thing. What’s the big deal? We’re basically walking/talking sacks of meat-what does it matter to you if some 10 yr old kid off’d him or herself?
Some child was hit by a bus in the UK recently and died, does anyone outside his family really care? You don’t honestly worry about the child’s future, you’re just projecting your own desires on them. Anyhow, this issue really is secondary to the main problem, getting Euthanasia legalized first, then people can quibble over the details after.
TiredofChronicPain,
I think we’re walking a fine line here. On the one hand, we need to give people the absolute freedom of choice to end their life. On the other hand, maybe their life isn’t as bad as the person thinks and it can be ‘fixed.’ Perhaps they’re going through a rough patch and in a few months they’ll do better.
I also agree with your point that close relations can be affected. But do keep in mind that people who are suicidal have already thought about these things and despite that, they want to end their life.
One reason I’m alive today is that I couldn’t leave some people who are close to me in a bad situation and I helped them out and I’m very glad I did.
But ultimately even that cannot be a reason to prevent someone from ending their suffering. And if other people are doing so bad that they couldn’t survive without that suicidal person’s help, then they should take the same route.
Suicide is not a choice that one makes flippantly or without any thought. I loved life as a child but as a teen when I realized where I was in the pecking order and many, many other reasons, I decided I no longer wanted to live. So it’s not a decision that’s made easily or foolishly (99% of the time).
I would never want to see anyone coerced or manipulated out of ending their existences by people who have their own agendas. Sure give them advice, therapists to help them improve their lives but if they insist on ending it then their wish should be respected. Nobody knows their own life or suffering better than the person living it.
As for people who live with chronic pain and still have a life, I personally don’t find that “inspiring” I see it as someone simply prolonging their misery. If you or anyone else is fine living in pain, then more power to you.
I myself have had extreme pain (temporarily) and had experienced serious illness and I definitely would not want to live that way if it was longterm. What is the point of living an extra day, month, year or decade if you’re in pain and suffering? But to each his or her own so long as nobody tells me I can’t end my life because they find my pain ‘inspiring.’
The thing with Euthanasia, Abortion, Gay rights is very simple, if you don’t want to abort, self-terminate, or have gay sex, then don’t, just don’t tell other people they can’t because you oppose it for your own personal reasons. That’s really the whole point here.
Hi day2day. Thank you very much for your reply. You are clearly showing intelligence and aptitude and I like that. Could we potentially talk over email? I would like to get your personal opinion on a dire situation I found myself in currently and how you would approach it. I like the way you write. I would like to rub shoulders with you on some things that might be making posts too long. We can always paste part of the conversation here!
Hi TiredofChronicPain,
You’re very welcome and thanks for your kind and gracious response, the feeling is mutual. I apologize but I’m busy with a lot of thing going on in my life and I post here only occasionally and I can’t really get much more involved than that.
However, if you want to describe your situation in general terms here (without getting too specific) or create a new post, then I can certainly try to give you my best advice.
Of course, I realize some matters are very personal and I wouldn’t expect you to disclose anything like that publicly if you weren’t comfortable doing so. Sorry but that’s the best I can do right now. Peace.
Hi dude. Sure. I will get started right away and would like your opinion. Are you actually afraid of death? I have personally dealing with a whole cassarm of life’s misfortunes: Chronic pain, anxiety depression. I am afraid my depression is so bad, with the chronic pain, that I am unable to keep a job. Which means I will have to go back to my parents in the end again. What would you say in this situation?
Is this something you can see yourself living with? Is that a life worth to you? I am not suggesting anything. Just want to brainstorm a bit. My parents would miss me if I would go to Switzerland say and go for euthanasia, but it is also no life anymore. I mean, I have battled severe social anxiety, and other mental illnesses, as well as being incel and slightly weird and unattractive my whole life. The only thing that keeps me here is my parents, and I deal with the pain of existence just because of that.
Hi Tired, I’ll post my response to you at the bottom of this page so it’s easier for us to continue the convo.
Oh, and lifelong. You haven’t given an update on your financial situation. Have you received any responses yet?
It’s quite simple. Your body is yours. You should always have the right to choose what you do with it. It’s not up to other people to make decisions about your life.
Not all pro-lifers are raging morons. Usually it’s just the loud mouthed ones. But as with most points of debate, the average non-fanatic ones have a reasonable grasp of the complexity and realize it can’t be solved with black & white, yes & no.
I don’t agree with suicide clinics any more than I agree with easy access to guns. Both make death a little too easy, and all it takes is a slight tip and suddenly we’re dealing with tragic, permanent consequences. But that said, I am firmly in favor of a person ending their own life as well as killing someone who violently attacks them. But it shouldn’t be easy in either case.
Suicide is mentally, emotionally and physically difficult. That said, those who really want to die will succeed, no fear, no hesitation, no failed attempts, they’ll just do it. And I support those people 100%. I admire them because I’m not at their level of courage (yet). To me, the thought of walking into a clinic and getting myself conveniently, painlessly and legally killed by someone else is way too easy. It’s a disservice to the countless people who found the balls and resolve to do suicide the real way. When I get there I’ll know my time is right. But I won’t take any shortcuts. Suicide is only as far as the nearest skyscraper, bridge, cliff, river or ocean. Sure those ways are messy, but who cares if you’re really serious about it
Hi Stranglehold,
Why do you want suicide to be difficult and dangerous? Why are you comparing one person’s suicide and expect them to suffer because someone else died in agony?
Don’t you feel life is already hard enough? Why should our death not be easy, quick and painless? What does it matter to you if some stranger goes to a euthanasia clinic and gets shot up with drugs and dies peacefully 5-10 minutes later? Don’t you think that’s the best way to go?
I don’t understand why you’re flip-flopping, on the one hand you think Euthanasia should be legal, on the other you don’t want it to be easy.
Also people who commit suicide by jumping/drowning leave an ugly mess for other humans to clean up. Not to mention the trauma others might experience if they witness the death. Compare that to someone walking into a clinic and are euthanized like the way we do with our pets.
And the fact that you don’t want to make it easy for others is what irks me the most. If you don’t want an easy, painless death, that’s fine just don’t get in the way of those who do.
There is no flip-flopping in my argument. You fail to see the difference between suicide (literally “killing of self”) and murder for hire (paying a doctor, or hitman, to kill you).
As I said, I 100% support the right for one to commit suicide. But I disagree with handing over money to an industry that is all too happy to kill you, thereby taking the actual “suicide” out of the equation. Bottom line, and I know this from learning about suicides, on this board as well as with friends: those who are determined to die will find a quick and direct way to do it. They have my respect. They don’t need a doctor in Switzerland to make it easy. If you want to die bad enough, you will make it happen.
If you personally lack that determination (as I admit I do), don’t try to make up for it with excuses, or by complaining that you can’t find a suicide clinic, or that the “laws” won’t let you. That’s all bs. Suicide is for people who are serious about dying and they don’t sit around debating right to die; they just do it. Exceptions, of course, in the cases of people who are literally paralyzed or bedridden–but suicide laws favor them. I’m talking about able-bodied people here. Real suicidal people don’t hide behind excuses.
What difference does it make if I inject myself with drugs or a medical professional does who I fully authorized to do (say I’m an invalid hypothetically)?
If a doctor in any free nation can make your death/suicide easy for you, why would you prefer to gobble down a bottle of aspirins and jump off a bridge?
Clearly you oppose Euthanasia for your own ideological reasons, which you haven’t made explicit.
It doesn’t seem you gave much thought to how difficult it really is to kill the human body without making a mess of it, or botching it up and become paralyzed in severe pain afterwards.
Why should anyone try a risky, dangerous method like jumping off a bridge, when we can simply euthanasize people with an injection the way we do with our pets? You’re one of those people that wants to make life needlessly difficult for yourself and others when there are obviously much simpler, safer and easier ways to achieve the same goal.
This is not a question of determination or making ‘excuses.’ Incidentally it is a very valid reason not to end your life by using dangerous, unreliable methods unless you had absolutely no choice and need to die soon for whatever reason.
Don’t you think that underscores even more profoundly the need to have a safe, legal, fast means of death that is medically supervised? If you had a choice between a euthanasia clinic or slicing your main artery in your leg to die, which would you pick?
day2day, you’re not listening. Let me try one last time and if you still don’t grasp the logic I’ll leave you to yourself.
It makes all the difference in the world who does the injecting. Consult any legal precedent in the world, and there is a clear distinction between suicide and homocide.
By paying someone, a doctor, a hitman or a homeless bum, to kill you, you are no longer taking responsibility for your death. This is what appeals to people who are to afraid or weak to kill themselves by suicide. They pay someone else to do it.
While the end result is the same: a death, it is VERY different with regard to what “suicide” really is: a wIllful, deliberate killing of oneself. If you don’t have what it takes to, literally, kill yourself, then maybe you should accept that you haven’t thought this through, or you haven’t reached the point where others have no such fear.
I’ll leave you with that. Like I said up front, I have no interest in discussing this complex subject with people who think it’s all black & white. Newsflash, one can be in favor of SUICIDE while opposing SUICIDE CLINICS. You just have to expand your mind out of the obvious “us vs. them” mindset which perpetuates so much ignorance.
Hey Stranglehold,
I understood you quite clearly, in truth you’re the one who has completely disregarded all my arguments and just kept repeating your original claim as if I didn’t hear you the first time.
But it seems you’re missing a key fact here, the whole point of Euthanasia is to legalize doctor-assisted suicide. This way if a medical professional terminates your life it isn’t considered homicide anymore but legalized assisted suicide. Why are you struggling to understand what it means when euthanasia is legal, it’s pretty obvious.
What does it matter who pushes the syringe to give you the drugs that kill you, whether it is yourself or a medical professional? Once you’re dead you’re dead. You’re trying to argue an absurd point, implying people are cowards if they don’t shoot themselves in the head.
This is a red herring and a ludicrous line of argumentation that has no value in this debate whatsoever. You created your own strawman, I’m not stopping you or anyone from committing suicide, however, you oppose euthanasia clinics and I was addressing that from the start.
We should put people like you on a list who oppose medically assisted suicide so that once it is legalized people like you will be prevented from using them because of your opposition to such clinics and because you want to prevent people like myself from being euthanized in a medical setting/clinic.
If you don’t want to be euthanized by doctors and would prefer to commit suicide that’s fine, just don’t get in the way of those people who support Euthanasia, that’s all we’re saying.
Oh my fucking word, strangehold. You do know that THAT is a cognitive fallacy you are committing? It is called shifting goalposts. “Euthanasia” Clinics in Switzerand do NOT kill you. You still make the choice. You still pull the plug. They only give you access to the means to do it. The “euthanasia” clinic is only a place people CAN get access to the means to end it; Not a mean to get ‘murdered’ by the Medical practitioners. “Homocide ” is NOT a wilful decision taken by the victim with authority over their lives, so you are arguing from ignorance. Homicide per definition is when someone DOES NOT want to die. But when an individual made up his mind, the suicide clinic only provides him that option for to his own impediment – most suicide clinics in at least the reputable ways, do not kill the patient. They administer you a lethal dose and you take it yourself.
It is also an amphiboly to suggest euthanasia and “suicide” HAS to be different. There is a middle man here: The law prohibits anyone from getting the means to end their own lives – THAT is what euthanasia activists predominantly fight for. To have the means to do it, not be imposed by the Government. They do not ALL fight for Doctor ASSISTANCE. The right to die only fights for the right to have such options to do it peacefully and painlessly, and not be barred to have the most violent means to do it – what the Supreme Courts have tried to do till now is make it ridiculously hard for people to get means to a safe way out. You should study the “right to die” before you sweep every euthanasia activist under the same brush.
Why does it HAVE to be black and white? You pro-lifers make it black or white. You are the one saying “euthanasia” and “offing yourself” cannot be the same thing. And because of that blind reasoning, we also have suicide prevention groups acting on behalf of very ill people – both mentally and physically – and create more problems down the line by getting the Governments to ban all the means to have legal euthanasia clinics. Heck, the Ancient greeks could go to a clinic to get the drugs, why can’t we?
“They have my respect. They don’t need a doctor in Switzerland to make it easy. If you want to die bad enough, you will make it happen.”
So you are the one creating the all or nothing situation here. Why should people go to lengths of pain to kill themselves when they CAN have a painless mean – we aren’t sick criminals. We are law abiding citizens who want to exit for instance? If their lives are in jeopardy, why SHOULD they be FORCED To have a less than painful and dignified means? Why should they create MORE pain by leaving a mess or cause a grievance to those around as a result of MORE violent endgames?
Would you want your sibling or someone you care for to go painfully when he dies or peacefully?
Should death IMPLY pain? That is the same as saying someone SHOULD die painfully in order to be truly honoured a death. So why shouldn’t this be applied to euthanasia and the “right to die”?
The same can be applied to staying a hotel. If you want to leave, and the people there like you, should they stab you with a knife so you can’t leave “as per your argument that if you really want to leave you should go to lengths? This is absurd. That is creating a sin of torture for a basic human right of living or dying. You are falling in your own trap either way because you have the null hypothesis to prove why the community SHOULD make it ridiculously hard for someone to make use of option X, when option X, has no negative adherence to the society itself; but that the said person acts only on behalf of himself, similarly that going to buy an ice cream cause a negative result in society. There is no modal logic or ethical equivalence you can apply other than getting away with emotive reasoning. So please start arguing from deductive premises instead of scapegoating the whole time to fit your own mold…
Hi TiredofChronicPain,
I don’t really fear dying because I know once I’m dead I won’t feel anything. I just fear what could go wrong along the way, which is why I’m an advocate of Euthanasia. It’s possible for people to botch their suicide, but at least if it’s done by doctors they have many other drugs/tools to make sure the deed gets done.
I’m sorry to hear about the chronic pain/depression and other issues you’re experiencing. I cannot advise you either way it’s a very personal decision. I have suffered through severe back pain on and off and have had many other ailments but I got through them.
Although I wished I was dead at the time and wanted the pain to go away, I knew eventually I’d get better because I know how my body works. However if I was told by doctors my back would never get better and I’d be bedridden, I’d never live a normal life again and there was no treatment, I wouldn’t think twice about euthanizing myself. Here in Canada it is legal and I’m sure I’d get approved for serious medical issues.
I’m guessing most men have felt unattractive and weird, I include myself but I still did pretty well with dating attractive girls. Personality, physique, intelligence and treating them with respect goes a lot way also. If your pain is debilitating then I think it might be difficult for you to date people-that’s for you to determine.
I hear you about your parents, my family matters a lot to me as well. If they weren’t around it’d be harder for me to continue living. I do have some big goals in life for myself but if there isn’t anyone around that I care about then I don’t feel as driven to achieve them.
But getting back to your situation, everybody is different, some people can deal with ten times more suffering in life than another person. There are many stories of people living with pain/injury while still holding a job and supporting a family.
I wish them well and applaud them if it makes them feel great about themselves but I think very differently. I never want to end up in a wheelchair, or live with unending pain. I’ve suffered a lot my life already and am fairly healthy and able-bodied presently.
There were a few times in my life where I genuinely wanted to end it and I was preparing to. But then I decided to just keep going to see if I can turn it around and live the life I always wanted. Death is there for anyone who is really determined to get it.
I know this is the only life I’ll ever get which is why I decided to keep living. But I’m not attached to living like some people are. If my health goes or if I can’t improve my financial situation significantly then I’ll call it quits. Some individuals get lucky in life, others never do despite how hard they try make it better and for now I’m in the latter camp.
So getting back to you situation, only you can decide what is best for yourself. If you believe you can live with and manage your pain (there are many drugs that can help) and still have a fairly normal life then you have your answer, many people do take this route. My elderly mother has arthritis in the knee and other pain but it’s under control and otherwise she is content with living and she’s fairly happy and productive.
Basically do what you think is best and right for you. I could definitely live with some mild lifelong pain with drugs to manage it (as long as it doesn’t hinder my quality of life), but not if it is intense and never-ending. Life has many ‘attractions’ to keep us wanting to live on but for me if I don’t get to live as fully as most people do then it’s just not worth the misery and suffering. Hope that helps.
Pro-life. Just to make sure I looked up a definition of it and found “opposing abortion and euthanasia”. Cripes. I will just focus on the euthanasia part.
Maybe instead of calling themselves pro-lifers they should call themselves pro-suffering.
Those who would voluntarily seek euthanasia would be those who are suffering. Pro-lifers who oppose voluntary euthanasia are the truly sick as they want others to suffer or, at the very least, think that all suffering is either treatable, which it certainly isn’t, or else must be endured. What a sick, sick bunch.
Their favorite argument is the “slippery slope” argument. “Well if we give people the right to die pretty soon government or others will take advantage of it.” Ok, lets put that idea to the test shall we? People have a legal right to marry but does the government force any one to do so?
What ever the drawbacks of euthanasia might be, it would at least respect the needs of those who would resort to it.