I’ve never come across a good example of how to manage the incredible range of contradictory, conflicting drives within me. I often see people who are struggling with some aspect of themselves, and think that if they just made a small adjustment in their approach, they could avoid so much trouble. But when it comes to myself, I have no clue where to start.
I have instincts and impulses to do the worst things imaginable within me. And it’s not that I’m worried that I’m actually going to enact them. I’m generally pretty reserved in most circumstances. But they’re strong enough to the point where they occupy a major part of me. I can’t dismiss them as “just thoughts”. They’re a core part of who I am. On some level I really want to do the worst shit imaginable.
But then I have to reconcile that with wanting to be a decent, morally acceptable person. With wanting to be accepted and valued by others. And even though that doesn’t seem possible now, the need for it doesn’t go away. I want to be ok in the eyes of others. I want to be loved and accepted. I don’t want to fear discovery and rejection. I have to face myself in the mirror, to live with the knowledge of what I am, and I struggle to sleep at night.
And the realisation of the impossibility of acceptance leads to the desire to annihilate myself, to wipe myself from existence. Or to give up, and continue to hide, and numb everything away.
But there’s still a strong desire to live, and to experience, that won’t let me be content with doing that.
The number of redemption stories for the truly monstrous is small, and most are unconvincing. Usually there is some Damascene conversion, a total change of heart. But for those who still have evil prominent within them, there are next to no guiding narratives. It doesn’t really work as a story – we need people to be either good or bad. The idea of people containing evil within themselves, without wholly giving over to it, doesn’t really sit right.
I’m not a monster, but parts of me are certainly monstrous. And I have no idea how to balance that with leading a meaningful, functional life. I don’t know how to live with myself, knowing what I know about myself. I’m not selfless enough to commit an honourable suicide, and even if I was, that would be outweighed by concern for the effects on my family. But I do feel shame, & fear, and that I’m unfit for human company. That it’s wrong to involve myself in the lives of others.
But I also feel insanely lonely, and isolated, and I’m pretty sure that only reinforces and strengthens the worst aspects of myself.
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You’re going to have to make more of a case than that to convince me of “monsterousness”, because my experience is that everyone thinks about terrible things. You can hide it, and some people are really good at that, but actual research reflects that the majority of humans think awful things, they just don’t do it.
Another issue here; the demographic that we occupy is filled with people having self hatred. It sounds like you buy into that being an accurate thing, reflective of actual value. I don’t buy into it. Too many times I’ve met people taking every chance they get, doing all the right things, but life thwarts them. We can’t blame the sick for being sick, nor the economically disadvantaged for being so.
I guess what I’m going for is this; if you had a more substantial support system, the ability to take productive time off, material financial support not dependent on what specific outcomes you can influence, would you still have terrible thoughts? Or would those thoughts be much easier to resist in such a case?
IDK, I’ve spent most of my life being called a monster of some kind by some people. I don’t believe in monsters. I believe in regular people who run out of better options. Yes, personal accountability is important, but it can’t obscure sociological forces.
I think it’s probably a question of degree. I’ve encountered very few people willing to admit to contemplating the kinds of things I’m talking about, and even in those cases, none that talk about the level of “monstrousness” that runs through my mind on a daily basis. I wish it were otherwise, as it would make it much easier to get my head around it all if there were people talking about it.
I agree that most people sometimes think about “terrible things.” An example might be briefly fantasizing about killing someone who’s wronged you. But there’s a stark difference between that and recurrent fantasies of violence towards those who’ve done you no wrong, which suggests a deeper disposition. A large part of your mind is permanently there, rather than being pushed there by temporary anger at the actions of others.
There’s also the fact that in the past I’ve repeatedly acted outside of the norm, while still being (I think) a long way from enacting my actual impulses. So in small ways I’ve further reinforced that part of me, and made it more tangible. This makes it impossible for me to dismiss as “just thoughts.” I’ve done things most regard as unforgivable. I’ve given that side of myself power to dictate my actions in the real world.
I agree that self-hatred is common among the depressed, and for most, that’s a result of distorted self-perception. I just happen to be one of the few with “sensible” reasons for hating myself. I don’t hate myself because I’m depressed. I’m depressed because I hate myself, because my fundamental values are in conflict, and that’s shattered my internal narrative.
I’ve blown most of the chances I’ve been given, made terrible choices again and again. I was dealt a perfectly decent hand in life, stable middle-class background, and I messed it up. If I wanted to retreat to genetics, I could complain about being gifted a hyper-sensitive disposition, which probably inclined me to maladaptive coping mechanisms when experiencing social difficulties. But then I’d be back to talking about who I am, at a fundamental level. My problems stem primarily from myself, rather than external circumstances.
For all of my life, I’ve had supportive parents, who provided as much emotional and financial help as I could’ve asked for (I’ve never had real friends or more extensive social support, as I’ve avoided forming or maintaining those bonds). And I still developed this part of myself. It’s true that at times when I felt more financially pressured, that side of myself was more in the driving seat. But right now, that pressure is more distant, and yet still that part of me resurfaces on a daily basis, vivid as ever. If I were somehow gifted my ideal life in terms of social relationships (and ability to function within them), my guess is that it would be less prominent. But still there in the background, eating away at me.
There are those whose “monstrousness” is completely uncontained by other parts of themselves. I don’t know if there’s utility in labelling such people, but they do exist (they’re definitely not regular people.) Those who have no conscience, for whom there is no dissonance. I am not one of those people. That’s what makes living with myself so difficult.
I can relate on the emotionally and financially supportive parents bit. I guess if you can’t run from these thoughts…. yeah I can see that acceptance would be hard. Everything needs some way to be expressed and dealt with, dark thoughts included…..
it’s probably the first and last time I say it; I’m probably a terrible person. I only care about what I consider right and wrong, and those two things are in constant flux. I can rationalize anything I’m actually capable of. I’ve stolen, cheated, and manipulated people with no guilt about it whatsoever. If that was the only presenting part of me, I suppose I could be called a psychopath.
It was a super power for awhile, that lack of gag reflex to the most disgusting things mankind is capable of. I thought maybe I could leverage it into a career….. no such luck. Now that it’s failed to provide me with material benefit…. I don’t know what to do with it. But on that same hand I have an overactive ability to empathize with people, what I generally lack is the ability to believe they empathize with me.
so it’s that free agent thing I think I’m trying to give to others…. partially because of my natural impulse to relieve suffering, but on a darker note it might well be because it would validate my irregular strategy. Everyone spreads their beliefs because it validates them having it….. it’s just usually not as blatant as when I do it.
In discussing this, I’ve ended up in an end path I’ve yet to figure out how to resolve; why is it that autism is something so blatant in some people, but I can’t prove one way or another if I have it or not. Geez it’d be easier if I had it…. no more pressure to achieve as though I don’t. But the way I think, the way I see, it seems to be too different for people to get their heads around.
Quoth the original Beauty and the Beast;
“We don’t like
What we don’t understand
In fact it scares us
And this monster is mysterious at least”
Obviously you’re the only one with enough information to judge yourself, but I wouldn’t say stealing, cheating, or manipulating necessarily make you a terrible person. It would more depend on the extent of that and the reasons for doing it. If you care about relieving the suffering of others, I would say that you’re definitionally not a psychopath. What the balance is between that care for others and your less pro-social instincts is again something only you can assess.
As far as I can tell, autism is not an exact diagnosis, but rather a label given to certain symptoms. But increasingly I see those who are perfectly socially functional being diagnosed as autistic. It seems to have become a catch-all diagnosis for “people who think about things slightly abnormally.” You have the mind you have – it doesn’t matter what you or others label it (unless you’re trying to get some kind of disability payout or want a convenient label to tell others as an excuse.) Only you can determine what the brain you have is capable of achieving. You do seem to have a rare way of viewing reality, and that’s a lonely experience, I know.
hey this might be a gross oversimplification of a much deeper problem, but have you tried changing or limiting the violent content of the movies, tv, games and music you listen to? I know firsthand how violence and the glorification/thrill of violence can seep into your subconscious from the type of entertainment you consume. Back when I listened to constant death metal, watched revenge flicks and was obsessed with true crime, I had those monstrous impulses. I’m talking about creative new tortures that the Inquisitor would shit himself at the thought of.
I honestly believe it’s a sort of misplaced creativity within us, the same thing that inspires Stephen King to write hundreds of horror stories. The thing is, those of us who don’t have a firm grasp of reality (meaning, we exist on the fringe of society, largely within our own minds) are very very susceptible to these ‘creative’ thoughts especially when we feed ourselves on them daily.
I stopped watching violent films cold turkey, now they nauseate me (hah… clockwork orange anyone?) and while I still have the occasional horrific impulse, it’s now relegated to clear fiction.. stephen king territory, not actual ‘what if’.
again Im sorry if that’s an annoying oversimplification, but it can’t hurt. We are what we eat, including intellectual nourishment. In fact i often wonder if spending too much time on SP and other suicide forums is actually normalizing the thought and making it worse…
It might be that violent media has played some role, but I think for me it’s probably linked to a deeper psychological issue. It’s more a primal instinctive thing than a detailed, creative thing.
I’ve never really been into particularly violent films, and tend to wince at gory scenes in tv shows. I do listen to a fair bit of death metal, but I’m not sure that’s necessarily that violent (other than the vocals sounding aggressive/angry). It’s more that there’s this deep emotional impulse to destroy others. I don’t fantasize about the gory detail, but most days I wake up with this lingering feeling of “I want to end you all.” Like, the whole world. Everyone. I want to wipe out every last one of you.
And I know I’ll never act on that. It’s not a part of me that’s connected to the rational side of my brain. But just shifting out of that mindset enough to go about my day takes a huge mental effort. It’s not something that’s compatible with how the rest of me views the world.
There’s worse sides to me than that, but I’m not going to detail them here.
oh i hate how Americans always blame the “violent” media on everything, like school shootings- it must be the violent video games and violent movies! or mass shootings- it’s must be the violent video games and the violent movies! we must ban them! solves all the violence issues! yup!!
plenty of ppl play “violent” video games or watch gory movies and have zero inclination to do or act out violence.
i’m not saying this thread is blaming everything on “violent” media. it just reminds me of MSM and parents the last few decades parroting this dumb shit, time and time again.
Unlike others on SP, when you say you have “monstrous” thoughts and have done “monstrous” deeds, I believe you. You’re right that most depressed ppl tend to self-blame based on perceived misdeeds. However that doesn’t mean there aren’t people on here or in the general public who do have terrible thoughts and desires and who do also feel guilt.
There are 4 types of people:
1- Those who are evil + feel no guilt
2- Those who are evil + DO feel guilt
3- Those who are not evil + do not feel guilt
4- Those who are not evil + DO feel guilt
Good vs Evil- Are some people “good” and some ppl “evil”?
“evilness”- thoughts of evil, acting on evil, etc.- exists on a spectrum. Are some people evil and others not? OR are all people evil- but just vary in degrees?
If someone is say 10% “evil”, 90% “good”, then are they “good” people? Are they truly “good” if they have evil thoughts and done evil deeds?
Everyone has had some evil thought- “oh I wish this asshole would drop dead or I want to kill them” but they don’t actually want to murder someone. Then there’s others who DO actually want to murder people. And I’m not talking about the rare 1% of murderers or serial killers out there. There are WAY more people than you think who DO actually want to murder, and some have thought for months or years how to do it, but haven’t bec they don’t want to get caught.
For reference, I did meet someone who flat out said he DOES want to off someone/some people and the only reason he hasn’t done it yet is bc of timing and of not wanting to get caught. He has ZERO qualms about committing murder, if it suit him, no guilt, nothing.
Ofc, most of those ppl would never say it out loud to anyone. To the outside world, he appears to be “very sweet” and “nice” and compassionate to others. Little do they know the real him. He knows how to put on a facade and is great saying the right things at the right time and has charisma.
Anyway, my point is, good and bad are not the only 2 choices. “evil” is on a spectrum. We often DON’T know just how evil most humans are, as we only see the what is shown to us, the tip of the iceberg. I think most people are way shittier and worse than we think they are. We don’t know what’s in the mind of others and what they’re truly thinking. And there’s so many master manipulators out there- they mask who they really are- sweet on the outside and sinister on the inside.
That’s not to say everyone is evil and it’s at the same degree. No. You are smart enough to know whatever you are thinking or have done is beyond the average “bad” deed. And I believe you.
Anyhow, you fall into a category which sucks for you- you have evil thoughts + also feel guilt. Most people think all evil people have feel no guilt, which is not true. Granted, those are the most prolific evil doers as they do not have a stop button. And also, there’s way more evil people on Earth than we think there are. Many we have met or crossed paths but we never know. Most are really good at hiding who they really are to the world.
anyhow, i’m glad you do feel guilt bc otherwise, there would not be much stopping you. but yes, that is bad for you bc you are living in constant guilt.
That all makes sense. I think I have a sunnier view of most people than you do.
Supposing the most evil 1-5% of the population are actual psychopaths, or those who feel no remorse, prepared to do the most terrible things (if they think they can get away with it.) I’d maybe put myself within the next group, say the 5-10%, who have violated some core moral norm, and have consistent thoughts of doing that. That would still leave 90% of the population upholding some level of morality, however basic. That’s not to say that they’re necessarily “good”, in the sense that they look out for their neighbours or are kind to homeless people. Just that they’re redeemable. They might be interpersonally shitty at times, they might lash out at others. But on some level, they’re trying.
well it all boils down to what one views at “good,” “evil” or “neutral.” the truly evil ppl- i hope to never meet. but i have met many ppl on the next rung below, those who have no remorse, no guilt in manipulating, using or hurting others.
Also, my view- which I get is different from others- just bc those who haven’t committed evil doesn’t make them necessarily “good” people. Say selfish ppl. I would put them in the “crappy ppl category” (obviously not in the evil category). Some people might put them in the neutral category. We all have arbitrary definitions of what is “good,” bad,” “evil,” or “neutral.”
Yes, in my personal viewpoint, I tend to judge humans more harshly than the avg human. I’ve met a lot of selfish, manipulative ppl. They gaslight, lie, omit the truth, they use you in some way, etc. They’re not evil in that they haven’t committed any crimes, they might not even be considered “bad” ppl if say, they haven’t committed adultery or things on that level. But I still put those ppl in the “not so good” or “crappy ppl” category.
And I also know most ppl are far shittier than they appear to be. The vast majority of people put up facades- maybe like 90-95% of people. When I was younger, ppl used to confide in me all the time, kind of a confessional, bc they thought I was sort of deaf-mute, and they felt certain I would never say anything to anyone. I rarely ever spoke any words when I was younger, so I was privy to ppl just telling me stuff. So I heard all kinds of things from so-called “nice” ppl. Ppl you think are “good” really aren’t.
But anyway, we all have our own definitions of “good” and “bad.” Most ppl, like you, think if someone hasn’t committed any crimes, they’re “good” or “decent.” I have way more categories so not too many make it in the “good” category.
Is it right or wrong? It certainly is way more depressing to view the avg person as shitty, or at best neutral, but unfortunately I cannot change the way I think, much like I cannot just tell myself to stop being depressed.