to believe or not to believe that is the question

“Why is it that people think that just because they don’t believe in God, an afterlife, or anything spiritual that it actually will not affect them when they die.”

You’re misunderstanding.

It’s not that people think that “just because i think it doesn’t exist, then it won’t affect me.”

It’s that they /actually think it doesn’t exist/, and that which does not exist, cannot affect me (or anyone else, for that matter).

The *idea* of god and afterlife exists, and that idea does affect people… but those effects are due to the ideas, and nothing else. That’s why “what people think” matters: thoughts and beliefs motivate action, and action affects change.

Belief isn’t really a question, though, and it’s certainly not “The Question.”

You might find that removing belief will unlock countless other questions, in which you will find evidence of a world that is not what most of us want to believe is true… but it (almost certainly) is.

I think everyone will simply cease to exist when they die, regardless of their beliefs. Believing something doesn’t make it true. Denying something doesn’t make it false. Wishing something doesn’t make it exist.

I suppose it’s possible that an afterlife we can’t substantiate with evidence, could actually exist, despite zero indication in reality that it actually does. And if such a completely hidden and untestable truth does exist, lack of belief won’t change that, just like “deciding to believe” that it does exist, won’t make it exist, if it doesn’t.

It’s up to each person to decide whether they want to live their only chance at life, motivated by false fantasies… or motivated by truth and reality, and attempt to make the most of it, while you can, before it’s gone forever… because no one really knows what or if anything happens after this, and we have zero evidence to reasonably justify any assumption that it does.

I personally think it’s incredibly foolish and often detrimental to both the self and the others, to go through life acting on false or incorrect information and assumptions. I think everyone should embrace a personal conviction toward attempting to see and understand, as well as possible, what is actually happening, and then act accordingly. But a whole lot of people seem to prefer to pretend and believe all kinds of ridiculous things, and then influence the world through their actions, according to those beliefs.

Or maybe you’re just a resilient human being, like so many of us are, and what you thought would kill you, wasn’t quite enough, for any number of reasons, which could certainly include the luck of ignorance, in that you didn’t know you could survive those previously thought to be definitely fatal conditions.

Anyone claiming god is “proven to exist,” is really only showing that they don’t know what “proven” means.

Maybe you should study anatomy and physics. That might help you find an explanation you don’t think exists. But then, you’d have to accept that what you previously thought inexplicable, and therefore attributed to an almighty, actually /did/ have a reasonable and natural explanation. And reaching that level of natural understanding, might be more than you’re ready to confront. That’s actually the main reason why people continue to insist on resorting to supernatural explanations, instead of learning about the natural ones.

“Are you going to say, “Well, I see your in a crisis, but before I can help you, I want to first assure you that your belief in God is ridiculous tripe, suitable for a self-deluded moron.” I don’t think so.”

And therein lies part of the problem. Part of why people get so depressed is that they are encouraged to develop fantastical expectations, and to “just believe,” despite what observable reality actually shows. This has, and will continue to, set up countless people for profound disappointment. When reality doesn’t match what you’ve been encouraged to believe, you start to notice things don’t make sense, and then you have no answers… at least, not any answers you can understand and use, while you refuse to let go of the delusion which prevents you from understanding how things really work… which was the motivation for indoctrinating you into those constructs in the first place.

You have to see the problem clearly, to maximize your chances of most effectively solving it. If you insist on seeing the world only through a deluded fantasy filter, then you will be unable to see the problem clearly enough to solve it, or even to know whether it can be solved. Instead, you will continue praying and hoping and wishing and dreaming in sheer confusion, completely unable to progress in any useful way, aside from the ironically critical enabling of being able to keep going in false hope of miraculous resolutions, provided by simply believing hard enough (which will never actually happen, and is therefore a foolish waste of time and energy, especially in the instance of a crisis).

So, yeah. The first step is disintegrating and dissolving the filters that prevent you from seeing reality for what it is, and cause you to interpret it as something it is not actually showing you. Get that out of the way, survive the transition, and then you can proceed. If you can’t do that… then how can you expect anyone to help you? Oh, right, encouraged to develop fantastical and unrealistic expectations, that’s how.

The “ancient way” is not automatically valid just because it’s old. Convention for the sake of tradition is the enemy of progress, not an ally. We have to accept when our past methods were ineffective or incorrect, and then determine new ways of doing things Better. What’s important is “better way;” the “newness” is merely necessity, due to the linear nature of time. If we could figure out how to apply the new best ways to history, and implement them before the current time… we could recursively and exponentially improve this moment, and beyond… but we can’t do that, so we have to accept that “new” is necessary when “the ancient ways” are no longer sufficient. “Believing hard enough” is clearly impossible, since no amount of sheer belief itself, will manifest an actual event in material reality. Material reality is the problem we need to solve, and that starts inside the minds of each individual, by correcting their methods of thought, and then having the right thoughts motivating the right actions. If everyone did the right thing, the world would be a much better place for everyone… even if we have to go through a period of conflict, strife and hardship, in order to achieve it. That’s what sacrifice is all about. You have to sacrifice your previous mental methods, once you accept that they lead you to the wrong place. Then you have to accept the challenge of figuring out what the right methods might be, and then working from there.

Not everyone is entirely responsible for incorrectly belief. There is quite a lot of very significant influence imposed upon us all, from a very early age. Not everyone is taught to think for themselves, or that questioning is a good thing. I usually blame the system more than any person… but it’s pretty frustrating when people instinctively defend the very same system which has lead them astray, for the sole purpose of furthering its own agendas.

Without the material world, we don’t exist; if we don’t exist, any problems are irrelevant, and do not affect those of us who do not exist. The material world is the vehicle of experiencing existence; this is where the solution must manifest. I think that qualifies the notion of the material world being “the problem.” Without the material world, there are no material problems. No one can legitimately confirm that anything beyond this material world actually exists, so we should focus on what we can observe does exist, which is certainly the realm in which the problems occur, and are suffered.

One approach might be to abandon lost causes and focus on preventing the system from indoctrinating new vulnerable minds. Prevent the problem from occurring, is a better solution than trying to change minds filled with a lifetime of misguidance.

I mean, we only have so much time to spend on this. I can’t do it all myself, no one can. I’d need an army of missionaries, as hysterically ironic as that sounds.

I strongly dislike the idea of having to “fight fire with fire” when opposing religion… but if religion is the only thing the religious understand, then what other way is there?

“Fight religion with religion” sounds ridiculous at first, but there’s a reason people say “the best way to become an atheist is to actually read the bible.” (although that conveniently omits the importance of critical thinking and access to, and understanding of, certain information…)

So no, i don’t really have “a framework for changing minds,” though i often wish i did. And even if i did, it would be a monumental task, just to put it in words that i, myself, would find satisfactorily precise… but then i would have to translate it to hundreds of different dialects of English, and attempt to do all the work in purifying the communication conduit between my meaning and any audience, because none of them will want to make effort to understand that which they do not want to believe.

How do you “make someone” willing to solve the problem, even if it means they need to learn an entirely different way of perceiving the world, before any real progress can occur? Maybe it’s not worth doing. But how do you change the system (which is made of people who believe things), without changing the people who comprise it? It seems like a paradox. It’s a very cleverly crafted scheme, despite the fact that i disagree with both the motivations and the results. The method itself, however, could certainly be repurposed for better intentions. But the shift will be difficult and lengthy.

Here’s where your comment lost me:

“Nothing in human understanding is really true. Yes, a rose is a rose, etc. But what is red and how do I know the red you see is the red I see? Unknowable.”

As a matter of fact, there are indeed things in the human understanding that are actually true. Red is red, because of the wavelength, and the way the very similar organic material in our very similar eyes and brains interpret this. I don’t know where exactly to find it, but this is, as i understand, proven. And i don’t mean “proven because i think i know so, therefore it’s true!” I mean this is something we can actually test, and people have actually tested it. I know it’s a fun thought to think that “maybe we all see the same colors differently?” But that’s not actually the case. I would guess that google can most likely avail such information to you, should you desire it.

However, i do see what you’re getting at, and i don’t entirely disagree; it’s just that we should pick our spots, rather than simply excusing everything as innately impossible to truly understand. We can’t know “everything,” and we really don’t need to. We can know enough to make a 99.x%+, reasonable assumption. We can know enough details that there can be no other reasonable explanation, without evidence of supernatural. In that particular case, lack of evidence IS evidence of absence. When we /do not find/ what must be found, in order to substantiate any explanation, then the explanation must be accepted as incorrect, until otherwise evidenced. No one should go around just believing “out of nowhere,” about anything.

One of the issues with science, is that it is attempting to provide evidence to those who cannot even understand it, who demand it of science, but not of themselves, and feel they are “above evidence,” even without even understanding what “evidence” means! You can’t judge something you don’t know, don’t understand, or haven’t observed. Therefore: we cannot reach a positive conclusion about whether any god exists; we can only consider how long people have looked, all the methods they’ve used, in all the places anyone has ever tried, and then consider the results: there are none. In all this time, nothing has been found to indicate the existence of any god, and wild hypotheses based on fuzzy math and bizarre premises, does not count… because it cannot be tested, and no evidence is observed outside the minds of those who arbitrarily choose a supernatural interpretation of anything.

I agree that if you want to communicate something to someone, you have to at a bare minimum meet them halfway; if it is something they’ve already decided they don’t want to learn or understand, then you will have to do ALL of the communication work, and you will have to do so in a way that leaves no room for creative (mis)interpretation. This is where precision is critical. But in dumbing down my own speech, in order to do all the communication “legwork” myself, to take the burden off the audience, so that all they have to do is listen (i don’t want to demand they pay effort, since they feel they shouldn’t have to, if it’s me who has something important to tell them)… precision is nearly impossible, due largely to the phenomenon i’ve coined “lexical dissonance” (which is similar to doublespeak, but is more about what the person thinks a word means, rather than the speaker trying to deceive them, as with doublespeak).

If i have to “come down to their level” before they can understand, but their level is incompatible with valid language, then how can i even effectively communicate with such a person? It is nearly impossible. It is profoundly difficult and exhausting.

And yes, you can “make” someone want something… but it requires skillful manipulation; controlling the information they have (and perhaps more importantly: making sure they have what is available, and aren’t lacking relevant things), can indeed alter what someone wants, and thus, what they are willing to do, based on the world they perceive. But some people are either unwilling or/and unable to perceive the world accurately, due to their indoctrinated mental constructs. The first step to understanding is to eliminate those “filters,” those false constructs, so that the person may begin to see the real world, unaltered by manipulative teachings meant to control them.

And here’s where it becomes unacceptable:

“It is not necessary that others come into understanding; only that the individual do so.”

I feel like you are insinuating that “the solution” is for me to just give up and allow what must be changed, to instead perpetuate; that i am that individual who must come into understanding, and that i am supposed to understand that i’m not supposed to attempt to change what makes my life unbearable, which is both directly and indirectly tied to the illusions, delusions, and false constructs, embraced by the majority of people who surround me.

That is unacceptable. That can’t be the solution. “Leave it as it is” is the exact opposite of what needs to happen, and “try to change it” is the only acceptable path, because “things being as they are” is the reason i have contemplated suicide for the majority of my existence (for at least the last 20 years, off and on, more on than off).

What it comes down to, is this: shit is gonna get right, people are gonna start getting right, or i am going to kill myself, because i cannot stand to persist in futility for no hope of any possible gains. If i can’t get what i want out of life, and can’t even get what i need, and can only experience fluctuation between anger, sadness, apathy, and momentary, fleeting, occasional joy… if i have to be stuck in all this BS, just because “everyone else” insists on thinking things are supposed to continue to be done the wrong ways… then i don’t want to be here. My life sucks enough. I’ve had enough. If there is no way for me to salvage what is left, due to interference and obstruction by others, then there is no reason for me to continue being.

So when it comes down to it, while i’m alive to act, to experience sensation and make sense of it (so often so easily), then my first choice is to try to change it, instead of just giving up. But far too many times, i’ve been shown that my choices don’t matter, and that other people will just “choose over me,” and override what i know is the right choice to move toward what rightfully should develop or occur. People negate my better choices, borne from better judgment, because they lack understanding, and are manipulated by the filters put in place by their handlers.

This is an important and entrenched, very difficult problem.

People who claim to be “good,” have shown me far too many times, that they will prioritize their comfortable excess over my bearable survival. It’s funny how often i know what someone will choose, before it even happens. And i know they aren’t just choosing the thing that will most upset or disrupt me, just because i’m “being negative.” They would choose what they choose, regardless of me, as evidenced by all the times my better choices have been overridden and nullified by others, who are almost always acting out of an insufficient and skewed understanding of the world, perceived through false filters.

So yes, it is indeed necessary that others come into understanding. As long as they lack sufficient understanding, they will continue to carelessly disrupt and obstruct my life, based on falsities. That is just highly offensive and insulting to me. My life is fucked up because other people believe bullshit. That has to change, in order for me to continue. If i had enough money, i could bypass the external interference… but they even obstruct my acquisition of sufficient resources, so i can’t do anything but wait and watch my life waste away, unable to do anything about it.