Where are you?

Gaara… really? Come on.

why does anyone need to know anyone else’s “ethnic background?”

I feel a little insulted that you seem to think “everyone expects everyone on the internet to be Caucasian.”

I’m “white,” and i don’t have a problem with it, but lots of other people seem to; other white people don’t seem to have any problem with me being white either. I’m pretty sure that means most non-whites are racist.

Maybe we don’t ask because it’s not actually important. It’s only important when a culture embraces stupidity or other wrongness, and then a person from that culture, embraces that culturally embraced stupidity and wrongness. If you choose to embrace a culture that embraces stupidity and wrongness, instead of separating yourself from it, then that’s your fault, not your culture, and not the “white people.” If you need to know what color or race someone is, prior to engaging in verbal cyber discourse, then doesn’t that make you racist?

It’s one thing to ask out of sheer curiosity, but entirely something else, to act bitter about thinking “everyone in SP expects everyone to be white.” Your comment has instantly caused me to suspect that your “phaneron” is wildly skewed; your perception of reality seems pretty inaccurate, and you apparently care about the wrong things, which is likely either the source or a catalyst of many of your problems.

To assert that there is a “typical expectation” that “each poster must be white,” is completely ridiculous, and offensive to white people. Not my “culture,” my skin. Just like every other race, white people have done plenty of bad things in this world, but that doesn’t mean “white people are bad,” any more than “ghetto culture” means “black people are bad.” Not all white people are racist, and not all black people embrace ghetto culture (and those who do go against the trend and reject ghetto culture, tend to get an extraordinary amount of respect from me, for the fact that they are identifying the cultural embracing of stupidity, and choosing a better option, and not going along with it and excusing their actions as “part of my culture.”)

You know what i expect each respective poster on SP to be? Depressed and/or suicidal. And i expect most of them to be struggling and confused and desperate. Some are ignorant, others are educated, some are both… some are religious, some are “spiritual,” some are so full of cognitive dissonance, it’s amazing they can even use the internet at all. But everyone who has ended up here, has ended up here… and while their culture may have played a roll in that, i don’t think that anyone should be so worried about which “ethnicity” any anonymous posters on a website “expect everyone to be.”

I don’t think everyone expects all posters to be Caucasian. I think you have arrived at that assumption incorrectly, and i think it is an indication that you, yourself, are racist. But maybe that’s not what you would like to be, and is merely a product of your environment and experiences.

Honestly, most white people don’t get all the alleged white-privilege advantages that many non-whites seem so certain we do. If you watch too much TV, or too many movies, you might be fooled into thinking they are an accurate representation of real life; they aren’t.

I don’t have any problem with anyone, based solely on their ethnicity. I only start having problems with people based on their actions, and the motivations for those actions.

@fortunear: dig through my posts. The super short version is lack of access and dis-integration; products of our environments, indeed.

@1298:

“I think Gaara was just pointing out that it is another way for humans to categorize themselves…”

Nothing wrong with self-categorization. Who else but i, would be more qualified to determine the most appropriate labels for me? And while we all may label ourselves this or that, or some other, what self-assigned label would ever stop someone from appropriate behavior or cooperation with others, despite their potentially incompatible labels? A rose by any other name… would change in name alone.

I’m all about judging people by the merit of their actions, and not their ethnicity (i almost said “genetics,” but let’s be honest: attraction is partially based on the genetics which create appealing physical traits… so yeah, i do judge by genetics, in that way… but that only matters in mate selection, like i previously expressed).

“…and yet, unlike age/location/gender, it is not mentioned often at all… and i happen to agree.”

What planet are YOU from? And do you understand that this “not mentioning ethnicity” is a result of the fight against racism? You’re basically arguing in support of a double-standard. If we all go around declaring and “labeling” ourselves and each other by ethnicity, then that’s just enabling more racism. In fact, “racism” does not mean “racial prejudice.” “Racism” is simply including a prioritized judgment criteria based on ethnicity, visual aesthetics, and genetic heritage. Race-ism. It just means the mindset that race is a meaningful and valid criteria by which to form opinions of others. Technically, we’re all a bit racist (just by noticing that any difference exists at all), but the real problem is those who reserve automatic negative judgments for, and impose resulting limiting and damaging practices upon, people of specific heritage, with specific traits.

My point is that we should not be worried about which ethnicity anyone is, unless it becomes clear that their ethnicity and culture have produced some relevant effect. In other words: it shouldn’t matter, until it matters. WHEN it matters, then we should consider its relevance… but in opposition to racism, we all have to take initiative and stop waving race flags at each other. We can all just be people, while accepting that there are lots of different variations on the word “person,” but nearly all of those variations are equally valid, despite those variations sometimes producing distinctive advantages or disadvantages.

But, OTOH, from a biological, anthropological perspective, race and genetic traits are interesting, and it’s totally fine to be curious, even to develop a preference for traits mostly limited to certain ethnic groups. Preference is okay, but “prejudice” is usually bad.

Then again… people love to identify with groups and wave their flags, and claim superiority over others. I guess i don’t really get into that much anymore.

Anyway, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say it’s wrong for me to identify that your race is different than mine, while also pridefully waving your race-flag in my face, without making yourself a hypocrite, and a racist; neither of which rank acceptably in my personal judgment heuristics.

Either everyone never identifies any racial characteristic ever again, and we move forward by pretending there is no difference… or we all have to accept the actual differences, and stop waving race flags at each other. No one gets a choice in their birth origins, but everyone can choose to do the right thing, even when it’s not popular.

@C4:

I feel pretty under-represented in “mainstream society.” I feel downright ignored. My “group(s)” has been much maligned, for various reasons, and my ethnicity has certainly been one of those reasons. But there are lots of things beyond my control that others still choose to hold against me. My ethnicity “occurred” a long time ago, and has never been in my control. I tend to think that anyone who wants to mistreat me just for being white, is probably a very stupid person. But hey, cultural influence can saturate environments, and produce countless products of those environments, which results in “idiocracy.”

“…to generalize so quickly as you obviously do.”

Ha! No. If i was generalizing, my comments would each fit in a single tweet. If i was generalizing, there would be no need to be verbose.

You should calm down. I thought it was clear that no one here was attacking each other, but if you need more clarification: no one here is attacking anyone (at least not in the comments on this page).

I will “generalize to the history of the world” all i want. What i say is up to me. You have no say in it. The important part is that i wasn’t accusing anyone HERE of doing that, i was attempting to express the reasoning behind my opinion, through commentary on typical events in the world at large.

In the world i’ve lived in (the real one), i see lots of people waving race flags, making race an issue where it isn’t, and shouldn’t be… same with any other “group” or “label” that people like to identify with (politics and gender are other similar examples). That’s why i asked “what planet are YOU from?” Maybe you haven’t seen it, but i see it frequently, and have for a long time. Shit like that has spilled over into my online activities in the past, and i have to expect it will again, from time to time. After all, it’s mostly actual people who use the internet.

I’m not “now changing my mind.” Gaara responded to that first post and indicated i had misinterpreted the intended meaning, so i backed off. I realize not everyone wields The English as i do, and sometimes ideas get corrupted in transmission.

My original point was that it seemed offensive that someone would just arbitrarily bring up ethnicity, and then accuse the general populous of SP of “expecting everyone to be caucasian.”

I suppose i can’t speak for everyone else, but i certainly don’t “expect caucasian” here, or anywhere else i spend my time, even though i, myself, am (unfortunately?) caucasian.

Why can’t we all just be gray and genderless, or even better: disembodied cyber-entities sharing words of subjective alleged “experiences,” which may or may not have ever been true?

@fortunear: lol.

I like your prediction. Depending on my mood, and your question, that has a reasonable chance of occurring.

As it turns out, my username is less clever than it claims to be, due to the fact that lots of people seem to interpret it as indication that “i think i’m so clever,” when the reality is actually just that i wanted “a clever username” when i signed up. “Clevername” was the result of the intersection of logophilia and opportunity, not egomania.

That said… i’m pretty clever. But i’m also not the type of person who “goes around acting like he thinks he’s so clever.” I’m not THAT clever. I just scored a lucky username on this website. Usernames has been a “thing” of mine, since i first started using the interwebs, back in the ’90s.

As my “bio” states, in “clevername’s” profile:

“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question, than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” (-Bruce Lee)

You claim you want to know “the real me,” but… you don’t want to read. You don’t want to put in the work. You don’t want to dig.

You want fish, but you want someone to give you a fish.

Then again, i understand your stance; you’ve never had “fish,” so you want to konw that learning how to catch fish, is a worthy investment of your time, prior to investing resources into an uncertain venture. It’s unlikely that you’ll ever be able to know the “original, bare, raw” me, even if you meticulously consume every bit of information available about me; even if i spent the rest of my life explaining myself to you, and you spent the rest of yours listening.

I am an island. I am a castaway. I am one of the world’s most tragically wasted potentials.

I have no idea what you would want to know, nor do i have any idea how to determine whether you are someone to whom i would want to expose my “true self.” Your expression of desire to see, though i appreciate it, is not enough, alone, to convince me to “bare my soul” to a complete stranger (at least, more than i already do on this publicly accessible website devoted to a “taboo” topic).

I still think the best way for you to see what you claim to want to see, would be to read all my posts and comments. And you can email me if you can find it. If i have commented any of your posts, it should be visible in your dashboard.

Here’s two of my own wise-sayings:

“All you can do, is all you can do.”
“People are people, and will do what they do.”

Real enough?

@kitty:

I think i am being fair. If it doesn’t come off that way, well, sorry, i tried my best. This particular thing is one of those that i try to let people be who they are; it’s not up to me to decide whether anyone else “should” be racist (or rather “racially prejudiced”).

Like i said: don’t take my volume of words as indication of aggression. Sometimes i just have a lot to say, and verbose precision is necessary in attempt to avoid misunderstanding. You could argue that “more words confuse people more,” but too few words leave too much room for misinterpretation. I prioritize precision over conciseness, though i try to be concise when i can.

The OP asked about location. I didn’t see anyone mention race or culture until that one comment, which implied a perceived expectation of a certain ethnicity. I’m not the one who brought it up. I had some things to say, and said them, and tried to drop it. Then there were more comments, and i had more things to say. I could probably spend my time more usefully, but… i’m here, so…

I never said that ethnicity was entirely irrelevant in all ways… but in “most” cases, it doesn’t have to be relevant. The only time it is made to matter when it doesn’t have to, is when people’s ethnically motivated judgments translate to actions. Speaking can be “actions.” Disregard and avoidance, while technically, actually “inaction,” still count as “ethnically motivated actions.”

It’s weird… the word “ethnic” has a connotation that feels like “everyone who isn’t white.” I don’t like that. That could be a result of exposure to my environment. But the *denotation (literal definition) does not exclude or specify anyone. Everyone is “ethnic.” No one should ever use that word to mean “non-whites.” (i’m not accusing anyone here of doing so; clarifying just in case)

@1298:

“so you just want the internet to be some other universe entirely?”

Well, that might be nice, i guess… but it could also just be a place where only ideas and communication really matter, without focus being placed on the physical parts, like it so often is IRL.

“you want us to rely on our capabilities to use language and get our ideas across that way[?]”

…and in order for cooperative and progressive communication to occur with any semblance of efficacy, something called “standards and practices” exists. If everyone agrees to the same language rules, and even when and where it’s okay to deviate from those rules, then communication will be far more effective and efficient, instead of discouraging precise verbosity as if that’s somehow a bad thing, even though it reduces the chance for the misunderstandings often caused by vagueness and ambiguity.

But yes, essentially, the intrinsic purpose of the internet is to facilitate communication. (even though so much of it is actually machines talking to each other with non-human-readable code… which is often just encoded human language!)

“because in reality these differences do matter,
if a person is trying to explain a personal experience in a post, then age/gender/ethnicity/background/even location probably fit into understanding that experience somehow….”

That’s why i said “it shouldn’t matter until it matters.”
That’s also why i said “it matters so much because people make it matter, when usually, it doesn’t have to.” (or something similar)

Understanding someone’s environment can be a crucial part of understanding who they are and what makes them tick. But “race” will not be relevant, unless it is made relevant by others (and/or possibly by the person themselves). One of the things i was trying to explain, is that race and culture don’t have to be permanently linked. Regardless of your ethnicity, you can decide that your inherited culture embraces concepts you won’t accept, and then refuse to embrace a culture that does things you find wrong. If you see the wrong and refuse to separate from it (perhaps believing you can change your entire culture…), then that’s YOU doing that To Yourself, not “your culture affecting you.” You can choose. But in so choosing, you will inevitably create a different problem, in trading the previous problems for new ones. It’s hard as fuck to be an outcast… but i would rather be an outcast, than to endorse and perpetuate something that i have to think is wrong. I refuse to integrate with a society that i cannot advocate. I refuse to blindly and mindlessly embrace any ‘culture’ out of sheer lineage, just because i inherited it in birth, if it does things i cannot condone, and is unwilling to change. Part of growing up is realizing that sometimes you have to choose the hard choice, because/when the path of least resistance is wrong. “Waving cultural flags,” just so you can feel like you’re part of something (while turning a blind eye to the wrongs of your own culture), is not something i can endorse.

But no one is obligated to earn or even acknowledge the validity or legitimacy of my approval. You are all free to never care what i think…

Just like you are all free to disregard whatever culture thinks whatever of you, for not joining in their practices, should you decide to dissent.

“but i mean i use this site just to vent…”

I used to vent. At some point i realized i was creating a sort of perpetual motion machine, each time adding more and more fuel to the growing internal inferno: the more i vented, the more i would need to vent again later, and the more irritable and exhausted i would allow myself to become, in the act of venting. It was as though venting only made me even more angry, and produced even more pressure that needed to be vented.

But, you know… i have to admit that most of my comments can be construed as “venting,” though that is not the intention.

And yeah… i’m defensive. Better (for everyone else) than being offensive, or dropping my guard and allowing intrusions past my defenses. I’m sorry you find my defensiveness annoying. I suppose you’ll just have to accept that some people are not what you’d like them to be. You’re certainly not the first person i’ve ever frustrated. I honestly don’t do it intentionally. I’m just a frustrating person, i guess.

You’re looking for something that isn’t there.

I don’t know who you think i’m supposed to be… but you seem displeased.

Sometimes, the only alternative to inevitably frustrating others with my attempts to communicate, is silent isolation. That gets boring quickly, and has been “old” since years ago.

I can accept that my attempts to interact with others will frustrate both of us… or i can suffer alone. Neither of those are my preference, so it’s easy to see how i might not see any value in continuing a life with only unacceptable options available. After all, all i ever do is cause problems by trying to solve problems.

“Stop the theater?”

Nice, an actor in his/her own facade, mid-act, accusing Me of “theater,” from their own stage.

And no, i don’t have “more to offer.” That’s part of the problem. I have nothing left for anyone, not even myself. I’ve given it all away, trying to solve problems no one ever wants solved, even when they claim they do… and then being blamed for even identifying and then insinuating that problems exist, as if i created them myself, just so i could say there was a problem. But it’s not me doing that. That one of the things i hate the most about other people in this world. They will create problems just to have an excuse to manipulate me; kinda like you’re doing, right now.

You’re accusing me of “theater” and “behavior” and “attitude” and “facade,” calling my writings “drivel” and comparing my comments to cat litter and sewage.

And i’m trying really hard to remain tolerant (but it’s easier because i don’t know you, so i don’t really value your wildly inaccurate opinion very much at this point) and civilized.

You’re just here to antagonize and provoke. You’re just trying to pick a fight. I actually had something meaningful to say… but people don’t want to read, they don’t want to listen.

They want someone to just give them the fish, instead of catching one.

But then when someone finally tries to give them a fish, and it doesn’t match the fantasy of a fish they had created in their mind, and expected to receive… when it’s slick and sharp and flopping around desperately, trying to escape its impending doom, unable to breathe… when they realize it’s not a cartoon-dream anymore, they don’t want it. It’s too scary and gross.

And what the fuck do you mean “something real?” That’s the most absurdly vague thing you could possibly ask for.

You want something “real?”

Look in the mirror. There it is! That’s ACTUALLY YOU! Weird, i know… but it’s true.

You want something “real?”

You have to kill living things, in order to preserve your own life. And before you start preaching “vegan,” ask yourself whether killing a plant really is any better than killing an animal. If you want to argue “what makes humans think we’re so special?” then i will take it one step further and argue “what makes anyone think any sentient being has any more right to live than any plant?”

Even further… what makes anyone think /anything/ is special? We’re all just animals (and maybe a small percentage of us are plants?), and will all eventually die, and that’s that. The only thing we can really define as “special,” is the chance to be born as a sentient animal. Anything you only get to do once, ever (as far as anyone can tell), should probably qualify as “special.” But we’re all impacted by whatever social constructs are created by others, and the systems in place by the time we arrive. These constructs tend to suck the “special” out of what seems to be most people’s lives. We can only change those systems if everyone agrees to think and act differently, and everyone won’t agree, unless the right information is taught to them from very early in their lives, and the world won’t change, even with the proper dissemination of knowledge, if people don’t have access to both what they need, and whatever else motivates them. And even then, it would take at least several generations of humans, to get that change mostly done.

I just don’t think it will happen. I have no reason to have faith in today’s humanity. We’re stuck with the world we’ve got, and some of us are tired of tolerating it. Most of my life has already passed, so i sometimes feel thankful i’ve already reached my current age. I’m sometimes glad i have nothing else to look forward to. It will be easy to let go and “press the button,” when the time comes. There is nothing left to miss out on, that i ever could actually have experienced. All my hopes were born of dreams that would never be.

Heh. Imagine that: even a total stranger on the internet is convinced that i’ve somehow built this shitty life for myself by having an attitude, while they completely ignore the possibility that anyone else could ever have impacted my life with their own choices, which were not in my control.

Anyway, this is utterly absurd and beyond asinine, so… i guess i’ll find something else to do, for now.