Why is it that people who have good lives, die? And why is it that people who have bad lives, live? Why must we continue to suffer? It doesn’t seem fair to me. We want to die, so that we no longer live in pain. It’s our choice. So why do they keep us alive? Those who want to live, should live. Those who want to die, should die.
It’s our wish. Why must anyone stop us from what we desire? Let it be. We want to end our suffering. Keeping us on constant watch only pushes us to want it more. Death. It sounds so sophisticated, yet simple. Don’t tell me not to cut. Don’t tell me not to burn. Don’t tell me not to run away. It only makes that urge stronger.
Why do you want us to keep on suffering?
Why?
51 comments
Money… Societal rules….and religion…
“Why is it that people who have good lives, die?”
Everyone dies. Everyone.
“Why must we continue to suffer?”
Because we can’t change what makes us suffer.
“Don’t tell me not to cut. Don’t tell me not to burn.”
These are things you CAN CHANGE, to reduce your suffering. Don’t cut. Don’t burn. You’ll suffer less.
The choice is yours, either way, regardless of what anyone else thinks or feels or wants.
But if you choose to cut and burn and otherwise injure yourself, then you’re being a hypocrite to suggest that you “don’t want to suffer,” because you are intentionally harming yourself, and therefore increasing your own suffering, unnecessarily… which is the very thing you seem to lament.
If your response to imposed suffering, is to make yourself suffer even more… how can you expect anyone to alter their actions to reduce your suffering, when you won’t even do that for yourself?
“Why is it that people who have good lives, die?â€
The meaning of this is that people who have better lives die sooner than those who suffer.
The whole point of this is that we want this. If this is what we choose then let us be. Keeping us away from that just makes it harder for us. I know everyone dies, I’m not stupid. I’m not the first one who said this before.
So many variables within this thing called life.
The thing that always amazed me was how good people died and bad ones lived. I know it’s subjective, but I have a strong sense of how certain types contribute to the good of society and the suffering it imposes upon us.
It was also ironic to me that a beloved person dies but my life crawls forward. Can’t give it away to the people who deserve it.
God sure is great.
Everyone dies. Rich and poor, good and evil and everyone in between. But the rich probably smell better because they can afford better soap.
God has nothing to do with it. We are all monsters.
Some embrace it, some fight it, some have no reason to condone it, some love it, some hate it, some pity it.
For the people that want to die, it’s as if we kill ourselfs to keep ourselfs from fully embracing our “human instinct.” Free ourselfs. But as I said with so many variables in life there are so many reasons for so many things. Is it fair that good people die young, hell no it’s not. They didn’t get the chance to prove themselfs or maybe it’s just they went out while they still had something to prove.
We can’t let the evil win but… everyone dies eventually.
Cutting and burning and in the weaker forms telling yourself how worthless you are ane “insulting yourself” actually help in some situations. Don’t understand me wrong: No one should do those things, but in the moment of deepest depression they somehow channel your pain into something specific. And this new pain suppresses the stronger mental pain of you depression. Of course this only works for short moments where you will forget how crappy your life is, but those moments are precious. So cutting will actually relief you from some of your pain, just until you realize nothing has changed – much like drugs.
“Because we can’t change what makes us suffer.”
That’s your opinion, but not necessarily true. Ask anyone who is post-suicidal: They thought like you that they had no hope left to change what made them suffer. Now they know they were wrong, because they aren’t suffering (as much) anymore.
I sarcastically make the God is great comment because, well, maybe I shouldn’t try to explain it at the moment.
Maybe it’s because I’ve heard so often how people get what’s coming to them, or it’s the sheer silliness of random acts of suffering that seem to occur in reverse of what would make sense in the judgment of a benevolent and merciful ruler that I have had the misfortune of hearing too much about.
There’s no rhyme or reason to any of this.
And some suffering cannot be changed.
@CDL:
Lots of people think they know what they’re talking about, when they really don’t.
I’m not one of those. I actually can’t change what makes me suffer. I’ve been fighting this for ~20 years, which is about two thirds of my life. I know what i’m talking about; not everyone does. I am rarely ever wrong, partly because i know how to investigate any issue and make an appropriate determination. Ironically, this has yielded very little discernible benefit to my life. Maybe if i wasn’t so freaking brilliant, i would have died a long time ago, due to stupid decisions (the avoidance of which has resulted in self-preservation, but not prosperity).
Being humble and modest also makes you happier with what hou have, but I wont dig into that here.
Imagine two persons with contradicting views that are trying to convince the other one of their view but are failing to do so. Even if both of them find others that support their view, how would anyone be able to determine which one is truly right? Indeed, no one can. Both are calling themselves brilliant and their opponents stupid, but nothing will convince them to change their view.
Being tolerant means you know of this fact and you act accordingly. You don’t have to change your view but you cannot assume yourself to be brilliant while denying the others this attribute.
Also, have you ever made a mistake? Of course you have. But claiming that one undoubtedly is right implies the impossibility to be wrong, to make mistakes. Before you made those mistakes, you were convinced of your view, right? So even if you are convinced of your views you must consider the possibility to be wrong.
@CDL: I’m buying you a beer if I’m ever in Europe.
@lorax: If you feel the sudden urge to reward me for anything you can always send me a parcel with American beer. Ill even give you my fake address.
I only make mistakes when i don’t have enough information to make the correct choice, or, when the correct choice is not available, but i am forced to act anyway, in the absence of the unavailable correct choice.
Tolerance is only appropriate in the appropriate context. If someone is doing something wrong that isn’t apparently negatively affecting me or anyone else, then i don’t mind tolerating that. But the funny thing about “wrong,” is that we tend to define right and wrong, based on the results they produce, which means that “wrong” is wrong, because it negatively affects others. So when i see a wrong that negatively affects others, and then people insist that i tolerate this, this is yet another compounding wrongness that i feel compelled to point out.
But this isn’t about “me.” This is about “you people” insisting that things be done the ways which only make sense when based on your invalid premises.
My counter premise, whether right or wrong, defeats almost all of your methods, and shows them to be incorrect.
Generalized tolerance is not a good thing, because it allows problems to be created, and prevents them from being solved, which them goes on to negatively impact /the entire world/.
There is no requirement for me to refrain from stating anything that i feel is reasonably justified. It’s funny that you think i’m neither humble nor modest, but then again, you believe god is real too, so it’s not surprising that you’d have skewed definitions of other words and events in the world as well.
Knowing i can’t change your mind, isn’t going to change the facts i observe, or the tentative conclusions which must be drawn from them, nor is it going to change my mind about whether someone needs to tell you how and why you’re wrong. Sometimes i feel like being very direct, and other times i feel that any and all further interactions with theists, is an utter waste of my very limited time, and so i refrain… which is partly a mistake, because my “tolerance,” my complicit silence, only allows your wrongness to further proliferate, and infect more minds, which makes the world an even worse place, full of people who don’t want to accept reality, which is a prerequisite to understanding it, which is a prerequisite for fixing it (or anything else, for that matter).
Sometimes i think that “having a nice life” would indeed be better than trying to fix what other people have made so wrong in this world. But other times, i think that trying to change what seems impossible to change, might be a worthy pursuit; maybe i can be wrong about other people’s minds being unchangeable.
I think the world is a worse place when people consistently attack strawmen and refuse to understand what they’re even arguing about, all the while presuming any opponent argument should be discounted by virtue of who’s making them. Tolerance implies an understanding of shared humanity, and that people, even when wrong, can still be wrong for the right reasons. Even oneself. But that also implies that people can be right for the wrong reasons. I’d rather just say fuckit and have everyone stop trying to burn each other at the stake. That makes more sense to me.
I agree that one should not tolerate people who hurt others. But what exactly makes me so intolerable that hurts others so much?
Also I am NOT asking you to become a theist, instead I tolerate your atheist views. As I said this doesn’t mean I have to become an atheist myself but that I treat atheists like any other member of our society.
Watch out, lorax; you’re brain is showing!
I think I’ll buy YOU a beer!
*your
(Yes, I purposely utilized poor grammar to make a point.)
@dragonfly: Is this positive reinforcement?
Yeah but if we tolerate the people who cause the world to be filled with wrongness, then what we deserve is a world full of wrongness, and those who will continue to cause it.
So we need to burn all the theists at stakes. Or just crucify them; at least then they can feel like they died in defense of their beliefs, just like their hero the Jesus… who actually died *because of* the “sins” of humans, and not “for” them, and not “to save everyone from hell.”
The fact of the matter is that i’m not wrong, but i do get really sick and tired of being attacked from all directions, by irrational mystics and fundamentalist theists, and even people who take their side just because they don’t like something they decided about me through the words i wrote on a website frequented by misfits and rejects, and otherwise defective people who don’t get along well in this world, for whatever reasons. It’s weird how we’re all *that,* but we still can’t all get along, because some of you still cling desperately to the very same delusions which lead you into your despair. I know all about that, because mine did the same to me. The difference is that i had the balls to discard what was obviously wrong, and attempt to figure out a better way, all by myself, even knowing it would make almost everyone hate me.
@Clevername, your brilliant mind should tell you that whenever a person celebrates their own brilliance, they aren’t exactly being modest. The fact that you point out your brilliance, of whatever nature this might be, is perceived by many people as someone, and correct me if I’m wrong since english isn’t my mother tongue, uhm “cocky”
well said
I’m not interested in being right or wrong. I’d rather be happy, to paraphrase Douglas Adams. Although knowledge does help in other ways. The only thing I’m trying to point out is the irony of demonization, whether that be religious or secular. Saying, “Satan made then do it,” is just as bad as saying, “Religion made them do it.”
So if i ever acknowledge my “brilliance,” even sarcastically, i’m forever immodest? That’s rich. Really.
Everyone here is human, and this is a place suicidal people come to share stories about suicide. I make one self-appreciating comment, and suddenly i’m neither humble nor modest? And everyone’s jumping on this bandwagon? Jesus fucking christ. I obviously don’t think i’m all that wonderful, or i wouldn’t be relegated to a suicide website as my only form of social interaction beyond the members of my household. You guys act like you’re upset that i think anything positive about myself; like you want everyone else to feel bad just because you do, and then to skew everything into some warped perspective where only the most pathetic and self-defeating concepts are admissible. It’s bullshit, and some of you know it is… and i think that’s actually worse than simply being ignorant and mistaken.
@lorax:
No, “satan made them do it” just has a very different meaning, when you don’t believe satan is a real thing. In this case, it means their belief in the existence of a satan, lead them to do whatever… not that “satan himself caused this.” I hope you see the difference, but i’m not really sure what to expect anymore, and i’m inclined to predict that my words will be incessantly twisted by anyone who wants to make me look bad, for whatever reasons.
Also I don’t really hate anyone on here. I’d be a lot more harsh and probably ridiculous than I am if I did. Disagreement doesn’t imply malignancy.
“Yeah but if we tolerate the people who cause the world to be filled with wrongness, then what we deserve is a world full of wrongness, and those who will continue to cause it.”
I could say the exact same thing. But tolerating isn’t tolerating if you’re not tolerating something you consider to be wrong. Thats the very meaning of ‘tolerate’. You don’t tolerate something you consider to be right anyways.
“The fact of the matter is that i’m not wrong, but i do get really sick and tired of being attacked from all directions”
At least you know how I am feeling most of the time as well.
Do you see now? I could c&p your whole post and it would probably make sense for me as well.
And if you reply to this post something like “Im right your wrong” that doesn’t justify intolerance towards me. It just makes the need for tolerance more important. Because how am I personally hurting you in a way that makes me intolerable?
@ CDL: :::shrug::: Who knows? Was probably just me and my moods.
@ CN: Most people would say I get along quite well in this world. I look good on paper, anyway. I know your comment wasn’t directed singularly at me. Food for thought: Brilliant minds rarely generalize in the manner you used in your above post.
You are, without a doubt, intelligence. What is your take on E.Q. vs. I.Q.?
*intelligent
@clevername: the idea that satan makes people do whatever it is being attributed to satan, implies that satan is “the lord of this world,” and anything antithetical to whatever thesis they’re defending is caused by that influence. At least, that appears to be how theists treat it. The problem with that idea is that it leads to demonization – rejecting anything an atheist says by virtue of who’s saying it, in other words. “Atheists are clearly wrong because they’re atheists.” The same is also applicable at the other end of the spectrum. Religion doesn’t make anyone do anything. People do things, then use religion to justify whatever it was they did.
Also:
do i appear to be “celebrating” my “brilliance?” I attributed my survival to it… but did it ever occur to any of you that, perhaps i wish i HAD NOT survived this long? I kept trying to make the best decisions i could, which i have to think probably had something to do with preserving myself as well as i have, for this long… but like i said, there was never any prosperity. I have “survived,” and with help, but have only achieved a life I NEVER WANTED. So, i got exactly what i didn’t want, for all my efforts. Does that sound like “celebration?” I’m about to kill myself. Does that sound like “celebration?” Hell, maybe it does, to you people. Maybe suicide is the ultimate celebration of mortality; at least i can throw it away and be done, whenever i’m finally tired of dealing with all this bullshit for no good reason.
Modesty is not only about not preaching ones own brilliance, it is also about realizing that one is only human and one can make mistakes. Modesty also implies not overestimating ones own brilliance.
Beliefs motivate actions. Religion “makes people do things.” It absolutely does. It “controls” the decisions they make, because it “infects” their minds, causes them to think certain things, certain ways, which results in actions they would not otherwise enact. It’s almost like self-brainwashing… except that the cause is external, and delivered through an indoctrination vector.
I don’t feel like you should feel bad about yourself. Not at all. That’s not why I’m here. I’m only pointing out that your answers have some tone of arrogance to them and they may be perceived as hurtful and harsh. As to your comment where you state “you guys want me to feel bad because you do” I don’t think that’s the case. Well at least not in my post. I have no intention of making other people feel bad. That’s why I try to be as compassionate to every kind of suffering. And about suffering, well it’s personal. What’s quality of life for that matter. Ask 100 people that question and you will have 100 different answers.
Before this gets out of hands: No one here wants you to suicide or to suffer or whatever you may imagine. Believe me if I say that I feel sorry for your depression and the situation you are in.
@clevername: Then tell me exactly which of my beliefs made me hurt you in any way. You are right about the fact that religions influence the way people behave. But if the result is a better behaviour than without religion, why would you mind? (Not saying that religions can also tell people to do wrong things, or that religions can be misinterpreted)
I’m not “overestimating” my “brilliance.” I’m not lying when i say that many people have used that word, of their own accord, to describe my mind. And every time they do, i feel weird about it, because that description doesn’t match the lack of prosperity in my life. So, it’s probably more accurate to say that most people just don’t know what “brilliance” really means. Just because i admit it occasionally, that doesn’t mean i’m overestimating or preaching. I hold no illusions about my status; there are many people in this world who are simply superior to me, in almost every way. There are people who are just better. There are those who can do things i just can’t do. I know my place. I am more humble than most people.
And for someone who insists that a god exists, to call MY modest and humility into question, is just infuriatingly ridiculous; especially since i don’t even care that much about whether people think i’m “humble” or “modest.” What the fuck does “whatever you think” even matter? The only reason it matters at all, is that you’re grasping at anything you think you can use against me, because you dislike that i both disagree and reject your spurious claims of gods and spirits, and cannot use any argument, because the only arguments you can even make, begin with an invalid premise that is unreasonably assumed.
@clevername: If that’s true, then the counter-argument a theist might make, that a lack of belief will equally motivate an atheist to see life as having little value, is true. Beliefs influence actions, but the religion itself teaches a, “turn the other cheek,” morality, and an insistence that human governance is actually satanic and should be opposed (including rigidly hierarchical Church governances, like the one that supposedly had Christ crucified in the Bible). If you read the Bible, that’s pretty much the only rational conclusion a person can come to. And yet we have a religiously conservative wing in our political culture (in the US), even despite what their religion clearly teaches. It’s politics. It’s not religion. If religion is responsible for anything, it’s any sort of opposition to the abuse of one individual by a more powerful individual or group of individuals. But even atheists can do that, so it’s not as though religion has a monopoly on it.
You see where this is going? You are judging me for being a theist.
Also my intention is not to use anything AGAINST you.
Why can’t you accept that people can have good intentions towards you? Not everyone wants to hurt you.
Attributing your survival to your brilliance. How does one do that? Does this mean that intelligent human beings live longer, survive better. Was it not brilliance itself that killed many great minds? Tortured by their own desire to understand the meaning of life itself. Is it not so that animals, whose brains are smaller and thus are less intelligent are not known to commit suicide. If you have survived it probably wasn’t your IQ that saved you, but more likely your strength to continue, and the deep power of survival instinct that has been in our DNA for centuries.
The more religious people arriving here will proportionately decrease the amount of time i spend here, due to the proportionate decrease in the amount of enjoyment i can gain from it… which means isolation, in my case.
There is already way too much unnecessary bullshit to deal with in life, without also having to deal with religious issues. This is part of the huge problem for me: i cannot interact with ANYONE, without the incompatibilities generated by religion, becoming a problem.
Fuck this, there is no hope of ever getting through to anyone.
I don’t know about @GMSP, but lorax definitely isn’t religious.
Also I truly doubt your brilliance if you don’t care about the arguments laid out in front of you.
Well, i can’t make enough money to do what i want with my life, so i must be stupid and worthless. Therefore, i should just save myself the unnecessary suffering and get on with my conclusion.
@CN: Weirdly, that’s the exact same conclusion I come to every time I say anything on a topic like this. It’s a weird impasse that really doesn’t make much sense to me. Either theists think you’re the devil’s hand-puppet because you’re not a theist, or atheists think you’re a religious zealot because you don’t think theists are all clearly wrong all the time. There’s just no upside with issues like this. So how about, rather than going back and forth about it, we figure out the best kind of beer and whether we all like billiards or would prefer to throw darts at a dartboard? Those questions seem to make more sense to me.
I actually share your view about religion. But I have no problem with others believing in anything they wish. My freedom ends where theirs begins. I can’t prove there is no spiritual world, I can’t disprove it either so anyone could be wrong or right.
jesus saves…but ovechkin scores on the rebound!
I’m sure it won’t take you guys very long to choose a new scapegoat.
I know I don’t blame you for anything in my life and I am pretty certain no one else here does.
@clevername, it’s quite sad to hear that is what you think people are looking for. I merely pointed out that your comments might be perceived differently as they were intended.
When it comes to religion, I don’t think anyone was trying to convert you so don’t see the problem, nor would I waste such energy in a debate that leads nowhere. I’m still young, if I die tomorrow I will have never had the wisdom that you have at your age right now.
The woman in the picture appears to be looking down at all of the comments on this thread. She doesn’t know what to do, so she clutches the toes on her right foot and wonders….why?
Why?
Why can’t we all just agree that platypi are fucking ridiculous looking? Why must be argue over how it came to be so ridiculous looking? Who really cares? It’s absurd, that’s all that needs to be said.