Today…. I had a thought. A very interesting thought…. I was astonished at how long I never put it together before but its all fogged up by bullshit. So…you can’t really see whats going on….
On this site…if you stick around long enough…you’ll see religious debates recurring frequently….and you’ll listen to people argue back and forth about whichever is right. The main battle being “Christians VS Atheist”. I listen to both sides and I realize both sides are right but wrong at the same time. Like why can’t evolution and the BBT be true and you just say “God” put it in motion?…
Religion fogs up the view….What if every religion is bullshit?….but god still exists…and instead of being extremely good or extremely evil…”God” is fact neutral….I mean think about it like this…..what if god is “good” and “evil” at the same time? but it just so happens his good side is stronger?….what if we are just so “lucky” because of god to had evolved the way we did?
What if other alien species DO exist but space is just so big that we haven’t located them yet?…Think about it if we exist…what are the chances that other humanoid species don’t? We always think of aliens and shit as MORE advanced but why do we do that? What if the aliens that people claim to have seen are in fact weaker than us but they have figured out a way to spy on us covertly? They know how humans are…because we always paint the alien in the movie as the ones trying to take over earth but what if we were the “aliens” to the aliens….that is to say what if we are bad guy?….you know what humans would do to a lesser species? treat them like animals…think about it if their planet was filled with all the earths resources times 100,000 think about how many people would vote to invade it and start enslaving them and pillaging their land?….we would cheer and unite as a species under the premise of dominating the weaker species…
Without Religion we would overcome petty differences like homosexuality because if you think about it…there is no way they could choose to be gay…because if they are choosing to be gay….then you sir…are choosing to be straight…but you know you never sat down and said to yourself….”yeah I’m going to like women I chose to” no instead you felt a natural inclination towards them and just like you feel that way that is how homosexuals feel…I mean the Christians cannot tell you *why* it is wrong except that “gawd said it was” what if god never said anything? what if that is just bullshit to keep people fighting?…I mean think about it….why would he give a shit about something as trivial as sex….like really why would he care?….oh two guys like each other? tell me how that affects any fucking thing in your life?…..it doesn’t except that you are taught to think that it does..its all about control…and thats what religion is…control….just a way to get you to be passive docile and desperate to the point where they have everybody getting in on the business of preaching nowadays….because its just bullshit….they know it is….why would god need 10% of your money? but humans have plenty of reasons to want 10% of your money. So what better hustle than by creating bullshit religions and using them to earn money? its the perfect con…
Why would god even care if you believe in him? or “it” or whatever it is?….it wouldn’t….because if god was present like if we could actually see and talk to this guy think about how we would beg him to do everything for us? we wouldn’t want to do anything….sickness? god…broke? god….lonely? god….like what if he was there as your personal genie to help you through every problem? existing would be boring…why would you even want that? there would be nothing to life…everybody would be rich everybody would be immortal and  everybody would be the “most attractive woman or man ever” so then what?…essentially we would all be clones bored to death….so instead he doesn’t interfere with anything so that he isn’t showing favoritism to anybody…
I just think we need to separate religion and god and just use logic…anything you do that is not hurting another person is cool…that should be the only law in existence….all the control and shit inside the bible and other religious text is bullshit …and you’ll hear people say “but the bible has so many words of wisdom too” but then why wouldn’t it? they know they have to sell it to you somehow?…
I just don’t understand why the ideas of Atheism and Theism conflict  ….because it doesn’t matter….if we know the BBT is the  beginning of everything or thats what Atheists say then…. why can we just agree that maybe something put that into motion? and leave it at that? why go beyond and muddy the waters with religion so then everyone gets confused thinking there is no “god” when they are right….there is no god of the various religions….there is only whatever thrust the big bang into motion…and whatever that is?.. is  “god” and it is neutral….like I think Einstein had the right idea when he said he wasn’t an atheist but he doesn’t believe any of the “gods”  of the various religions existed….which is basically agnosticism….and I think that is the only way to be….
133 comments
That’s not agnosticism it’s deism. Agnostics don’t rule out the possibility of “God” but say there is not sufficient evidence to prove the existence of “God”. A deist believes that “God” is a neutral party and has merely put the events in motion. It ,it being God, is simply an observer waiting to see what plays out.
I love the fact that you use ellipses frequently, it adds such character to your writing, you are a very cool guy.
First of all, I don’t see the connection between this suppose “supreme being” (God) and aliens which you mentioned. I don’t disagree to the claim that extraterrestrial life exists, I’m sure it does. What I don’t agree with though is that it resembles domestic life in any form. A different plan would harbor an entirely different environment and probably render them a completely different form than us in physical regard. Perhaps they can’t see and navigate through other methods of vision far beyond our capacity to imagine? An alien would be adapted specifically to the pressure and gravity of their planet of origin, which may make them incompatible to come to Earth or even probably vice versa. I think it’s highly improbable that human life and some kind of alien life is compatible enough to even meet each other yet alone attempt to communicate or “dominate” each other.
I see what you’re saying, I just can’t accept the idea that there is a supreme being, that leads to too many paradoxes. What came before the supreme being? What made the supreme being? etc. Perhaps if there is a “God” they are far beyond the comprehension of a human. I also don’t think they would manifest as something that even closely resembles man in any form, just like with the aliens. We envision foreign beings as similar to humans because that’s what’s familiar to us and it’s hard to think outside the box when all you’ve ever known is what’s inside the box. I don’t think there is any kind of supreme being that influences anything, things happen just because they do, not because there are any strings attached. Probability is an essence of mathematics, which is literally founded on logic. Maybe you could say this supreme being “invented” logic, but even so, I don’t see how that would affect things after the matter. Just my opinion though.
Thanks for post, it was an interesting read. You should do this more often!
@SB: The connection would be that we could all agree that whatever happened something put it in motion thats not to say anything pertaining to him is true as far as religious text but that something put everything in motion via the BBT and evolution…We don’t have to cloud it with religions with “he said she said” bullshit…
Well as far as resembling any domestic lifeforms thats all up to ones imagination so who knows? With time and technology what is improbable today could be common in a 1000 years… you never know…
What paradoxes?…what if the supreme being is eternal? and I know you say well how can that be?…well….what is the last number? what is the last positive number and what is the last negative number? whatever number you say I can add a 0 onto it and make it a larger number indicating the concept of eternal…
well nothing would need to make the supreme being….I mean why would it need to be made if its eternal….if it is eternal then it existed for all time…and since time is eternal….then its not something that was created it just is….whose to say “god” or whatever it is didn’t have trillions of trillion of trillions of years to think of all the solar systems in existence?….it is so big out there that we don’t even know how big it is out there…so with time being eternal it would be able to have the time to do anything….You have a point though…”Perhaps if there is a “God†they are far beyond the comprehension of a human” and it is this point which destroys any religion because if we can’t comprehend it then how could we put it in books?
I don’t think he influences anything either I just think he set it in motion… anything after that was up to the processes of evolution…and however we evolve is on us….what if time would go on for humans as long as we evolved? like if the only way we die out is if we go extinct by way of nuclear war and depopulation…If we did…does earth die with us? no….another animal might evolve for the domination of earth….perhaps the cockroach will feed off the nuclear waste and become huge and become carnivores…who knows?
I just think we should try to learn about how we evolved if thats the way it happened and move forward with logic…destroy all religions and let a single rule be the law….does it hurt anybody else? no? its legal….that rule cannot be undermined because literally everything that is wrong hurts someone else and if it doesn’t? its cool….that is the whole reason for something being wrong….does it hurt someone…if it does…its wrong….we don’t need all the extra bullshit…if a man is gay…does it hurt anybody?….nope…legal…..crack…does it hurt anybody (excluding the person indulging) ? nope… legal….like we could examine every law and by this criteria determine if the law is just or unjust….
When we try to go beyond the scope of what we know….then we muddy the waters with bias and religion because some nitwit somewhere is making a new religion and controlling people while collecting his 10% tithe from each member Sunday morning…best job ever….I’d bet these pimps of religion are actually atheists or agnostics and just know a good stable job when they see one….
What business is recession proof? the church….its the church….no matter how bad the economy is churches will be filled with people giving their last to get a blessing from the religious gods….it is tax exempt….and we have seen how it has made several people rich….I mean Christians will argue…”jesus said he is the way and nobody gets to the father except through him” and I laugh inside because jesus is god reincarnate…so if god is jesus and jesus is god then….it doesn’t matter its just bullshit ….”noise” just shit to muddy the waters with and confuse people….
@Jax197: Why are those ideas separate? combine them they do not conflict with each other so you can be both…
It is funny how everyone wrote their point of view and argued that all others are either crap or contain mistakes. Why can’t we just accept that people have different beliefs and don’t criticize them for their views, like implying: “Anyone who is stupid enough to believe in a Christian God must be a worthless idiot.” Of course this is exaggerated but still close to what goes through most people’s minds when they think about others with different beliefs.
@PainNLife: An agnostic does not know whether there was some being that set everything into motion, a deist believes in such a being. Combining both means giving up one of these two beliefs.
@Pains
well, you’re right, according to Newton’s Law of Inertia, an object at rest stays at rest until acted upon by an outside force, so I suppose it would make sense that something “put everything in motion”. I don’t think a supreme being would even speak or adhere to a language for the most part, let alone communicate with humans in face of how prodigious the universe is (not even including the several universes included in the ‘multiverse’ theory) why humans out of all those infinite number of other lifeforms that likely exist?
After the science funding got cut, I know it ain’t America that’ll discover aliens lol
It’s a paradox because something cannot come from nothing. Numbers have a beginning, unlike this supposed eternal being, which is what separates their validity.
I’m a little amused that you refer to it as a “he”, another example of how we humanize these abstract concepts that have no real substance.
Of course the Earth would not die with us, the Earth has existed for billions of years, it has lived exponentially the amount of times humans have existed. The Earth does not rely on humans, humans are a parasite to the Earth and nothing more. We aren’t very significant, in brutal honesty.
Evolution in its most basic form is well… very basic. Through the mantra “only the strongest will survive” evolution has selectively chosen certain traits that are beneficial enough for a species to survive so that they can be based on. The cycle continues indefinitely. (until we all die, that is) Organisms were formed from molecules which were formed from material produced by stars, which was formed through nuclear fusion. There’s nothing magical about it that would require the guidance of a supreme being. Once these molecules assembled (mostly carbon) they became unicellular creatures (prokaryotes I think they’re called), which then began evolving into modern multicellular organisms (eukaryotes?) I don’t see how that would have anything to do with a supreme being.
Organized religion is nothing more than a business, just like any other organization that requires indoctrination and dogma. It’s all bullshit, and on some level, I think we all know that.
“Why can’t we just accept that people have different beliefs and don’t criticize them for their views, like implying: “Anyone who is stupid enough to believe in a Christian God must be a worthless idiot.â€
Because contradicting stupidity is doing the person a favor, if you believed 1 + 1 = 3 your entire life, surely it’s at their personal gain if someone finally told them that they’re wrong and it equals 2? Especially if thinking 1 + 1 = 3 convinced them to do certain things that were detrimental to themselves and other people.
If you honestly believe in a Christian God, I’m sorry, but you are an idiot. If you actually believe in a magical talking snake and an ark that held every animal in existence, you’re a bit… uh…
Numbers have no beginning….0 is not the beginning of all numbers…-1 is less that 0 so what is before that? -2 and it keeps going so you can never find out where numbers begin or end because they simply don’t….
In the original post I did refer to it as “it” although he/she it whatever title really doesn’t matter…
Okay but ask yourself what are the odds of something like that happening without something making it happen…after that it has no effect on earth or the universe….whatever happens after death is speculation but while you are alive why can’t we just combine both ideas and eliminate the fodder…
I agree about religion though…it is a stain on humanity…
@Pains
0 is the start point, that’s what I meant to imply, which is different than the beginning. You start counting at 0 and continue from there. This “God” would need a starting point
What does probability have to do with the beginning of everything?
Consciousness is literally just electrical impulses and chemical reactions, it’s not special or magical, there’s no life after death. I’ll paraphrase Stephen Hawking again “Humans are organic computers. And there’s no heaven for computers”
@clairDelune: Those ideas don’t conflict in fact… they agree very well….just because you do not know does not mean you can’t believe….If “god” or “it” whatever it is put the BBT in motion how does that conflict with anything…essentially both sides “win” and “lose” in the same breath….if God does exist why can’t he exist as neutral…thats not to say I know but I believe a god (neutral god) does exist. Some people will say “you believe things you don’t know? ludicrous!”…but…so do they….you haven’t verified every single fact in existed therefore you do not know that those things are true but you believe them because it is of the opinion that they are true…but do you know they are true? no…you just trust in the fact that they are called facts so you believe they are true….so what is the problem with calling the predecessor of the BBT god?
Mind trip: What if God said he isnt real. And we all know he is infallible. Whoooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh.
@SB: see you are making the same mistakes as religions…..lets say that is true….then what? Maybe you die and there is nothing but whose to say that wasn’t how it is supposed to happen?….what if god is just the creator and thats it? no heaven hell angels none of that….just the creator nothing more nothing less….eliminate everything you think about god except he is the creator and you’ll see that it doesn’t conflict with anything…all that is being said is that something set forth the things that happened but they don’t interfere with them….
0 is not the starting point it is the neutral point…..we start counting from neutral….but numbers never “started” because its not possible to determine it….-1 how many numbers are before this? you can’t answer that because it is an infinite amount….
@Pain. I want to address the most interesting topic in your post. Aliens. Because like you said, we have had the Christainity/Atheist argument. But what about the Alien vs Predator argument! But I want to mention Fermi Paradox. Some smarty pants mcghee, lets call him Fermi as in you made these cupcakes Fermi?!?, showed that if Aliens existed, where the hell are they? I wont bore you with the math because that is Wikipedias job and what American likes math, but even the most pessimistic of estimations (pessimations) show that we SHOULD have encountered Aliens just because of the sheer number of planets and the age of the universe, that old geezer. So why have we not?!
@Fortunear: How do you know we haven’t? You’ve have no ability to know that…..there could be a council where every humanoid species has a representative and they don’t share the information with the public because they don’t want mass hysteria as a result ….think about how many people would be demanding to visit other planets? how many billionaires would be trying to go to other lands to set up business and etc etc?….the repercussions for releasing that information would ripple out for miles…who knows whats out there but I’m willing to bet we aren’t the only planet that has evolved
Oh god, this again…
“Mind trip: What if God said he isnt real. And we all know he is infallible. Whoooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh.”
I’ve actually used that exact same thing to make a point, quite recently even.
The interesting thing so few ever seem to notice, is that BOTH the terms “theist” and “atheist,” have in-common, the notion of god. Both terms are based on the idea of god. That’s why i don’t like the term “atheist.” I shouldn’t have to define myself as lacking something, especially lacking a belief in something that has never once been substantiated or evidenced. You know what else i lack? Belief in anything that isn’t at least a reasonably justifiable notion, based on facts, and potential-facts that could possibly, and/or might probably, actually be true.
@Pain: of course, to the aliens, We are the aliens. Perspective, yo.
Aliens don’t like exposing themselves to humans because they consider Earth a ghetto. Would you drive your Audi over to the bad side of town and try to make new friends?
Aliens befriend cows and dolphins when they visit Earth.
Does anyone else start picturing different Alien penis possibilities being proudly revealed as a trench coat is flung open when the phrases “aliens exposing themselves” is mentioned?
@Pain. That is one theory. I have a hard time attributing the competence necessary to keep Aliens a secret to any group of people. We are terrible secret keepers. I subscribe more to the “unique Earth” theory. Like SB mentioned, we are nothing special. I do not believe evolution naturally leads to us or even “intelligence” as we know it. I believe we are a huge fluke the likes of which has not been replicated elsewhere. Why would it? The goal of building towards enough knowledge for galactic cruises is ours. Not the universe’s. In natural selection, nothing points to our type of cognition being the pinnacle of its process. We just so happened to survive and develop to what we are. Is this making sense?
For instance, the fact that I can understand entanglement enough to know how quantum computing can solve almost anything we throw at it or have enough chemical expertise to make my penis bigger with a pill that has creepy smiles as a side effect (remember those commercials?) will not stop a cheetah from chewing my face off or a baboon ***** slapping me for staring at its cushy tushy.
@Fortunear: When you say “we” you mean more than one human…who is to say that only one specifically selected human does not know? One that was screened and entrusted with the secret…if we were lucky enough to have evolved this way from abiogenesis whats to say that same mechanism hasn’t happened somewhere else in the trillions of trillions of miles that the universe has…?
Who is to say it has? *shrug* I heard the theory that Raptors were destined to become the dominant species. They were becoming more and more the “clever girl” (Jurassic Park reference holla) and developing communication. Would they have become reptilian space dinos? Would they eventually “think” as we do and invent engines and facebook? Dinosaur sitcoms that beam electromagnetic waves in the universe to be detected by others? (btw there is a dinosaur sitcom from the 90s and its fucking awesome)
No such thing as aliens.
They are fallen angels who are in a different dimension from us. They are demons, capable of instilling images/thoughts into the ignorant and willing mind of the individuals (e.g. alien abductees, etc.).
2 spirits cannot inhabit the same body. If one is a Christian (a real one), they will never be subject to that type of experience.
Whoa, I just had this weird idea. What if god exists and is the universe, but not just that, what if god is actually a giant kangaroo and the universe is actually its pouch? O.O
That’s a scary thought.
@Lorax
I’ve actually had similar thoughts. Well, more along the lines of: what if the universe is like a snowglobe that some ginormous alien likes to shake sometimes?
@PainNLife, you said you believe in a being who put everything in motion. No point in denying it: You are a deist and definitely not an agnostic. Just check the definitions on wikipedia.
(For your information: IF you were an agnostic you would NOT know whether some being put everything in motion. SINCE you believe in something like that, you are NOT an agnostic.)
@Stendarr’s *****: SINCE you are unable to disprove the Christian God, you CANNOT use the comparison to “1+1=3”, BECAUSE this is something which CAN be disproved.
You also falsly believe that being a Christian makes you do things “detrimental to others” that you would not do if you weren’t a Christian. This just comes from your hatred for religion and the resulting biased perception.
“@Stendarr’s *****: SINCE you are unable to disprove the Christian God, you CANNOT use the comparison to “1+1=3″, BECAUSE this is something which CAN be disproved.”
I’m unable to disprove God? I can’t. God, why are 90% of the theists I’ve met so fucking retarded.
The absence of evidence in itself contradicts the existence of God along with the distinct lack of logic his existence would suggest
You can’t amalgamate magical men who can turn people into pillars of salt with reality/logic. Are you listening to yourself?
Oh no, not this again.
I bet after the nuclear holocaust, isolated tribes of survivors will form. Within these tribes, people will fight to the death over stories about whether historical figures in the past even existed, attributing supernatural powers to them. One day, one of their children will stand up and say, “Dafuq is wrong with you! Stahp dat.”
Then the cycle will start again, only future generations will bow and fight over that boy.
Haha, lorax, it was ever thus.
@ClairDelune: I wasn’t going to bother engaging you because the few times you’ve been here in debates and such… you like to go off tangents and misconstrue others words to fit what you want to say or think…but I figure eh….I have nothing else to do so why not clarify it for you?
“@PainNLife, you said you believe in a being who put everything in motion. No point in denying it: You are a deist and definitely not an agnostic. Just check the definitions on wikipedia.
(For your information: IF you were an agnostic you would NOT know whether some being put everything in motion. SINCE you believe in something like that, you are NOT an agnostic.)”
We’ll take your statement apart sentence by sentence to show you you’re wrong…
“You say you believe in a being”…lets be clear….My idea of “god” is characterless…its not even able to be described….The only thing I say is that something put whatever happened into existence….be it “god” or some metaphysical elements or who knows….I’m just saying something put it in motion not specifically that a “god” did it but that something did it….
“You are a deist and definitely not an agnostic.” …this was funny…because you said that under the premise that those beliefs conflict with eachother….when they don’t…you can literally be both of those things without either idea conflicting another….
Go ahead…tell me how either of those ideas conflict with eachother I’ll wait….give me a direct idea of one side that contradicts the other ….In fact…from now on I think’ll I’ll refer to myself as an agnostic deist….its the perfect position..
“(For your information: IF you were an agnostic you would NOT know whether some being put everything in motion. SINCE you believe in something like that, you are NOT an agnostic.)”.
Haha this made me laugh a bit….this is what I meant when I said you assert things as if they are facts when they are really opinions….Agnostics never claim anything…thats the beauty of it…we claim to “not know” anything…we don’t know that god doesn’t exist…and we don’t know that he does….and that is the truth… we don’t know anything….
HOWEVER!, why can’t you believe something exists or happened without knowing? You believe in a lot of things that you actually don’t “know”….because you’ve never verified it…literally everything that you believe to be true that hasn’t been verified is a belief in something you do not know….we accept facts to be true but unless we verify them we can’t “know” that they are 100% true….so it doesn’t matter really….just like atheists can be agnostics so can creationists….agnosticism is the gray area so to speak…with agnosticism religion would be no more….whether or not god exists doesn’t matter to me because their is no proof to assert that you KNOW he does or doesn’t….I never said I knew anything…but I can believe in something without knowing (everyone does) and agnosticism keeps me away from the extremes of religion and atheism….
“@Stendarr’s *****: SINCE you are unable to disprove the Christian God, you CANNOT use the comparison to “1+1=3″, BECAUSE this is something which CAN be disproved.”
Okay… well you know what else can be disproved?
1+1=?
We know this equals 2. Not “?”
We also know 1-1=0
also: 0+0=0
Let’s juxtapose this;
What if…
The LACK of any god, is what “created the universe?”
What if there WAS, previously, a god… but it stopped existing, for whatever reason, which then allowed the universe to spring forth, in the sudden absence of that god?
What if “god” was the supreme gravitational force holding the singularity together… but then, “poof,” it’s gone, and the singularity erupts with an incomprehensible force and magnitude?
What if “god” *is* the singularity? (thereby making “him” all matter and energy in the entire universe, as well as the “space” between…)
@Clevername…Exactly……all of that can be true…but thats the thing….it can be whatever as long as we agree that we directly or indirectly came from something else…no matter what it was …some people call it “god” some people call it energy or all consciousness etc etc but…it doesn’t matter because the fact is we don’t know….the problem with religion is that they KNOW god exists and they know for a fact that the bible is the truth because it said it is and that “tithes” are really for god….shit….I should make my own religion and you should too… if thats the way you have to make money then why not? You will say that you can’t get in front of people and pretend but I bet as soon as that preacher showed you a “tithe check” you’d do it….He literally has the best job in the world….a preaching pimping pastor …he works….4 or 5 days out of the month and gets…..how much? well lets do a little math…. lets consider your average Joe Pastor…and his church….and he has 100 members…. and lets say they all make minimum wage so they pay about 35$ in tithes every Sunday…times 4 for each sunday of the month….140$…..but thats just one person….if we multiply 140 by 100 thats 14,000 a month!! …x 12….so he brings in a grand total of 168,000$ tax fucking free a year!….AND…. their job is recession proof!…in fact I’d argue they get a huge bubble during recessions because when are people more desperate?..than during a recession? and where do they go?… to church …and what do they pay? tithes….(yes tithes are recession proof too… god needs that money!)….so ALL religion is nonsense but they all make cents if you think about it….
“Pastor Painnlife”
@PainNLife
The keywords you’ve been using is “can”. Yes, it *could* be true, but since it’s not able to be proved nor does it have any type of evidence (speculations are not evidence) we cannot make assumptions about its existence. It does not exist until further notice, regardless of what people believe/think to be true. Belief is not objective, evidence is.
@Russo: …Speculation and assumptions indicate uncertainty correct? Follow your own logic “we cannot make assumptions about its existence” if thats true for me then its true for you too….so if you have the right to speculate on what doesn’t exist…then why can’t others speculate on what might or might not?…
“we cannot make assumptions about its existence. It does not exist until further notice”
Think about this ^ for a moment…its contradictory.
It’s not an assumption. An assumption is “a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.”
Was I said is an assertion based on the *fact* that there is an absence of evidence to support your claim/speculation.
@Russo: You can literally flip that back onto itself and it cancels out because if you apply that to the same thing you are claiming then it falls apart…an assertion is claiming something? correct? so you made a claim that you have not verified is true……… there is no evidence against him….there is no evidence for him….”Agnosticism” ….we simply don’t know…it was an assumption…the definition of assumption is objective…
and claim and speculation are not the same thing so don’t put a “/” between them as if they are interchangeable when they aren’t….I do not have to claim anything to speculate….that is the whole purpose of speculation
@PainNLife
Please read what I wrote: The lack of evidence of a God is what supports my claim that it does not exist.
C4 wrote on a different thread that mirrored what I’m trying to say. You cannot make a point by telling someone to “disprove” the existence of something that has no evidence to support it. “Prove unicorns don’t exist” what you’re saying is a moot argument.
I’m a little miffed at the whole “Absence of evidence is/is not evidence of absence” argument(s). On the one hand, an absence of evidence does seem to imply an evidence of absence. On the other, I can imagine that an omnipotent being, given the desire to not be found, would very easily achieve an appearance of absence. We’re very limited creatures. I don’t suggest that I believe that to be the case, but I acknowledge the possibility.
I’m as convinced about the baseless God claims as I am about the fact that humans like to invent Gods by the thousands, they are very susceptible to delusions and the God concept is obviously part of the human psyche. I’m not agnostic about Superman either. Not because it is absolutely certain that such a being could not exist (a lot more likely that a God figure), but because I don’t make silly special rules for certain baseless claims.
It is a given that we can’t know anything absolutely (we are limited to our human perspective), so why do some people pretend that we should have to only regarding Gods? We know everything we know based on the preponderance of evidence and God thingies have ZERO. Actually negative evidence if you factor in the plethora of logical flaws in such a “loving and perfect” creator in an imperfect world. The claim isn’t even coherent and it is based on 100% speculation.
It baffles my mind how some people think that we need to know something about a concept born only on blind speculation, simply to right it off as wishful thinking. The rational thing to do is assume it doesn’t exist until it can be “proven” to exist.
Inquisition anyone? 😀
I’m watching you watching me watching trains go by. I think I’m going to grab a beer.
The universe and everything just happened. Why can’t people accept that there isn’t an answer for everything? For example, there is no answer for 5/0 or the square root of -25. Nonetheless, mathematicians translate these into “imaginary numbers” as a placeholder for the answer “i”. The square root of -25 is 5i. “5i” may be the answer, but *it does not exist* it is simply a placeholder. Same as this “God”.
It does exist. Granted, no such thing exists within any of the four familiar number systems. However, there is a different number system in which such a thing does exist. The “numbers” in this different number system will be totally different objects from the familiar real numbers, but that doesn’t make them any less real. Complex numbers are defined as pairs of real numbers. Real numbers exist, so pairs of them exist.
@SB: I’m happy with not having an answer for everything. That’s my point.
No, there is no number you can multiple by itself that would equal -25. 5 x 5 = 25. -5 x -5 = 25. You cannot get -25 from any number, it does not exist.
Not all complex numbers are real numbers. Complex numbers are broken down into the branches of “real” and “imaginary” numbers. Not all complex numbers are real numbers.
What about -5 x 5?
@C4
That’s not a square root. A square root is the product of a number multiplied by *itself*
5 and -5 are not the same number.
@Stendarr; Ah, ok. Gotcha. I found the 5i thing too.
Maybe I should start reading the backchat before commenting. That, and try to remember what I forgot in math when I went to school a lifetime ago.
What matter is that we’re all arguing for the sake of making a point, and nobody really cares what the answer is. Why?
Because the answer does not matter, in either the God world, or the atheist world.
We are driven by our brains, our passion, little ants among the cosmic sand; whatever we are looking for, is a pursuit of our happiness through the progression of our personality: we don’t ever look for truth.
We just push to get in the first row.
@Benna
That’s the argument most people resort to after they’ve been proven otherwise “Why does the answer matter”. It’s an unclassy way to admit you’re wrong and back out of the argument.
(I don’t know why I’m so frustrated, forgive me everyone)
ahuu, 1-0 for you. I was just trying to get away with a smart solution for everybody, but jesus!
If people want to go believe in magic and shit, whatever floats their boat. It just makes them look like a gullible idiot.
What about Criss Angel? He’s an illusionist. He can fly and stuff.
I imagine you’re on the atheist side and i’m on it too. But..
i’ve stopped to think that believing people are idiots since a few really and universally-acclaimed intelligent people did believe (see Einstein, Pascal).
There’s nothing stupid in believing that what goes beyond science, is ruled by something that is in contrast to science.
Atheist have their faith, too: we believe that what we can’t understand, is ruled by science (yet we don’t have any proof).
Now you are going to say Criss Angel doesn’t really fly? man, next thing this conversation is going to end up on santa not existing and the easter bunny being fake too.
But seriously, if it’s god or everything just existed and here we are, or maybe it was aliens. Does it make a difference?
It’s an ontological quandary.
I guess it wouldn’t. What would make a difference would be huger stuff, like finding a girlfriend, or a good comedian on Youtube.
Criss Angel is awesome, I don’t know how he performs his miracles. He should consider starting a religion.
The aliens gave up on humans a long time ago. They’re more interested in cows now.
If you don’t believe me just ask any cow.
@C4 Are cows good conversationalists? I’ve never spoken to one before. Maybe I will next time I see one.
Those bitches cows sticked together amazingly, it’s hard to get from them a single word. But we will.
You have to do a Vulcan mind meld with ’em. Or, you must learn to decipher their moos.
It’s worth the effort, they’ll set you straight on the whole alien thang.
@benna Do you hold the secret of how to speak to cows? What do you have to do? Is it like a secret handshake (hoof-shake?) or something?
I only ever argue over these topics against my better judgment. It’s like intentionally taking IV nitroglycerine despite having no medical condition which it might treat. You wind up with a horrifying migraine for hours after the fact. It kind of begs the question why anyone might do such a stupid thing, but the answer is unknowable.
Ah, nevermind, C4 just answered my question. I’ll have to look into that. Thnx.
How did we manage to speak of cows really? The debate was so bright..
hehehe. “Oh yee of little faith”.
Surely thou doth think I jest, nay?
@benna : haha, i meant that it wouldn’t make a difference for all of our troubles, or even for our lifes if it was god, just the universe, aliens, or cows.
And now the topic is cows instead of cheese? at least it is dairy-related as well haha
Speaking in King James English doesn’t make the alien/cow conspiracy more believable, huh?
Shit. It worked on other people.
@Lorax Precisely! And what makes me skeptical about this kind of philosophical thinking is: that if i was happy right now, i wouldn’t fucking think about this bullshit at all. If i was happy i wouldn’t mind the holocaust, i wouldn’t mind the nihilism, i wouldn’t mind God himself returning down here and explaining to me how to speak with cows.
This is a bit annoying
I say we all say fuckit and go enroll in Icelandic Elf School.
i pack my shit up. @Keief i’m lactose intolerant!
Icelandic Elf School? Does one learn how to become an elf, or are students taught by elves? Can we major in Bovine Studies? Can we learn cow as a second language?
I bought a PhD in epistemology from my local meth dealer.
From what I understand, students at Icelandic Efl School are taught by a crochety old guy all about the various kinds of elves and magical peoples that inhabit Iceland. Not sure where the school stands on topics of human-cow relationships, though. Apparently there are homosexual elves, though.
I wonder if they discriminate against leprechauns….
@C4 Surely thou doth spoketh to thine bovine? Nay?
@Keief I can’t stop thinking of cheese-mites. Oh no.
@benna It’s probably a good thing you’re lactose intolerant… there are cheese mites, you know.
@lorax Icelandic Elf School sounds like fun!
That’s good to know, Lorax. I’ve been trying to find a reputable magic school. I don’t trust those Harry Potter people. Thing seems like a scam to me.
God, you’re all a bunch of loonies. I love you. Here where i live it’s 3.45, i don’t know about you, but i’m going to bed. Be nice to italian people abroad. Buy pizzas. Bye!
G’nite Benna. Thank you for the kind words. 🙂 I love you in a “we will never meet” sort of way too.
PS. Can I get a Hawaiian pizza in Italy?
@benna LOL… Welcome to SP. 😉 You’re Italian? That’s cool, me too! Well, I mean, my great grandparents came over from Italy. Good night, hope you sleep well.
I honestly don’t think so. I also work in a pizza place, as the inevitable pizza delivering boy of cheap porns, and i’ve never heard of that. But we can put all the shit you want on it for just about 7 euros. (which are worth sort of a hundred of your poor dollars 🙂 )
hehe. A Hawaiian pizza has pineapple and ham on it. I would love to visit Italy just to eat one pizza there. I’ve heard good things about Italy.. .Ferrari, Maserati, Ducati, Lamborghini, Spaghetti….lots of quality stuff that end with vowels.
And everyone out here wishes to go to America (me included). If we learned how to be happy with what we’ve got..
America’s ok. Lots of people speak English here, that helps. Plus, we have lots of guns, prisons, religious fanatics and WalMarts. It could be worse.
@TheGoodGirl: i saw one of those mites in person today, they are not as terrible as they makes them look haha
@benna: porn pizza, lol now that sounds like a fun job
@C4: you forgot the talking cows
@keief: By talking cows, I assume you mean politicians, no?
@lorax: if C4 meant politicians by cows i guess so… but i havent met many politicians who say moo on their speaches 😀
Aliens abduct & perform experiments on cows. A connection exists between cows and aliens. Why is that? What’s up with the crop circles? Is it the work of sneaky intelligent cows bent on world domination, or aliens? I suspect cows.
The cows must be forming a resistance movement. They’re tired of having their bovine brethren slaughtered for us humans to consume. The aliens might be working alongside the cows. Crop circles could be the cows way to communicate with aliens.
Yes, The Good Girl. I’m happy to see that you’ve seen through the smoke and mirrors. An ongoing genocide has been occurring against cows for a long time now. Humans ask “what is the meaning of life”? Cows don’t ask that question because they know they’re destined to be a steak or a cheeseburger. They’re tired of existing only to be a meal for fancy primates.
The aliens struck a deal with the cows long ago. An uprising is imminent. If you don’t learn how to communicate with cows, and sympathize with their plight, you will find yourself on the wrong side of the upcoming conflict.
I’m not really sure yet how the aliens benefit from all of this. Maybe cows are smarter than we gave them credit for? Maybe they sit around and play cards when no one is watching? Nobody knows except for the aliens.
It all started with earthworm jim and the cow princess!
Poor cows. 🙁 They don’t even have the luxury of having an existential crisis. They just want to graze in an open pasture and do cow things. I understand why they’re fed up. I would be on the side of cows in an uprising. As long as it is not very violent. I think the aliens benefit by being able to take over the human race. I’m not sure. Perhaps their intentions are not so altruistic. The cows should be cautious, you know. Now… I only have to learn how to speak cow.
@keief I had to google that to find out what it was. haha.
Cows kill about 22 people in the U.S. every year. I suspect the number of cows killed by humans is much higher. When cows kill humans they make it look like an accident. Humans seldom “accidentally” kill cows.
The aliens are not happy with this. We have a crisis now….humans need to coexist with cows or else there will be intergalactic conflict. (And you thought you had problems).
Strangely enough, I don’t plan on giving up cheeseburgers anytime soon. But you should.
This was a nice post PainNlife, it’s a stressful subject isn’t it? You can’t argue religion versus science because religion relies on blind faith and science relies on the scientific method. It’s like comparing a carbon based life forms versus a silicon based life forms. I think people should just never bring up the subject and if you are ever in an environment where people do bring it up – run run run.
Do they really? That’s interesting. In what ways? Stampede? Disease? Yeah, I’m pretty sure humans kill a lot more cows.
Intergalactic conflict? Oh no. That sounds serious. Can’t the aliens be a little more patient.
Hm, no, I quite like a cheeseburger every now and then.
@TheGoodGirl: Imagine ending up the game and a cow that you catapulted at the beggining of the game kills the princess you want to save… completely changed my view con cheese burgers and dairy products for the rest of my life. I blame it on most of my issues.
@C4: and that’s why you don’t give guns to cows.
This is a highly sophisticated form of warfare, folks. Watch the head fake, it is true the cows are in cahoots with aliens. The feigned calm and unyielding stupidity are tactical offenses to garner pity instead of hate, leaving them the time to plot and the enemy-supplied steroids with which to arm themselves.
@keief I’m sorry that game was so traumatic for you. Do you suffer from flashbacks or nightmares?
@Fro-not-so-zen What if the aliens have done experiments on cow’s brains, in order to make them more intelligent, and use the cows as a means to an end?
@TGG; Cows are skilled at murdering people and making it look like an accident. They stampede or fall down on someone. It seems so innocent, doesn’t it?
@keief; At least guns keep kids off of drugs. Me personally? I’d rather have drugged up cows than fully armed cows. They’re ruthless, bloodthirsty killers that should remain high at all times. (Cows, not kids).
@TGG: yeah… at times, whenever i see a cow or a worm i cry myself to sleep while keeping my head under the pillows. If i see both GOD don’t let me see that again x.x.
@C4: How about a young cow? half child half cow? a ruthless bloodthristy killer with a drug addiction problem!
@C4 You make me laugh – how dare you be so humorous.
@keief lol
I speak cow. They’ve taught me much, even though I resist their ways.
Yes, they’re responsible for cheeses (thank you), but I can’t turn a blind eye to their homicidal tendencies.
“I speak cow” <- greatest phrase i've heard in all year
Some cows are happy with their lot in life. Hasn’t anyone read Hitchhiker’s Guide? That talking cow who gets all excited about the fact you’re going to eat him? It reminds me of those KFC commercials with the dancing chickens taking a “dip” in some BBQ sauce.
Cheeses work in mysterious ways. The same is true of cows & aliens.
How would you explain color to a blind person?
How could you explain music to a deaf person?
We are limited in our ability to express ourselves. Language falls short. Some concepts can’t be explained via language.
Cows know this.
Hm. I think I’d still join the cows in an uprising.
@lorax Nope, I haven’t read Hitchhiker’s Guide. There are talking cows in it?
Well, to be fair, I think there’s only one talking cow in the whole series, but it’s a highly memorable talking cow.
@Russo: “Please read what I wrote: The lack of evidence of a God is what supports my claim that it does not exist.” – Okay and “speculation” is not subjected to that rule because it is not making a claim…..To speculate is to “form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence” so if you can “assert” that there isn’t a “god” then why can’t I speculate? I’m not claiming anything as fact…..
“C4 wrote on a different thread that mirrored what I’m trying to say. You cannot make a point by telling someone to “disprove†the existence of something that has no evidence to support it. “Prove unicorns don’t exist†what you’re saying is a moot argument.”
I’m not telling anyone to “disprove” anything because I am speculating…that is the point of speculation….
“The universe and everything just happened. Why can’t people accept that there isn’t an answer for everything? For example, there is no answer for 5/0 or the square root of -25. Nonetheless, mathematicians translate these into “imaginary numbers†as a placeholder for the answer “iâ€. The square root of -25 is 5i. “5i†may be the answer, but *it does not exist* it is simply a placeholder. Same as this “Godâ€.”
its funny that you say things but you won’t apply the logical things you are saying to your own statements…. now as for the math stuff I have nothing to say about that….I suck in math….but you say “the universe just happened” can you verify that? …how? …..I’m not making a claim you are….I’m speculating….you’re making an “assertion”….
“If people want to go believe in magic and shit, whatever floats their boat. It just makes them look like a gullible idiot.” ….
How? explain how believing we came from “something” makes you look like a gullible idiot?
@Pum: “I’m as convinced about the baseless God claims as I am about the fact that humans like to invent Gods by the thousands” I read the first sentence of your statement and I’d like you to clarify it for me….because this is a better attack on religion than on god…humans make up “personal gods” but again I’m not “claiming” anything…speculation is all…and religions CLAIM to know god exist….I don’t nor will I ever argue in defense of its existence because I can’t prove anything with speculations and speculations aren’t mean’t to prove anything anyways…
” We know everything we know based on the preponderance of evidence and God thingies have ZERO. Actually negative evidence if you factor in the plethora of logical flaws in such a “loving and perfect†creator in an imperfect world. The claim isn’t even coherent and it is based on 100% speculation.”
I never said he was “loving and perfect”…I would speculate that it is neutral because it is the perfect position….its like “it” is 0 … its above negative….so you can never accuse it of anything negative or evil….but….its not positive so its less than good but you can never accuse it of helping you either.
“The rational thing to do is assume it doesn’t exist until it can be “proven†to exist.”
you have every right to do that but speculation doesn’t require me to prove anything…speculation is literally “what if”… I’m not trying to prove “what if” I’m just saying………..”what if” ….now you can say “what if not” but who cares its all speculation nothing is fact and I’m not arguing over its existence but merely speculating on what could have happened….
“its funny that you say things but you won’t apply the logical things you are saying to your own statements…. now as for the math stuff I have nothing to say about that….I suck in math….but you say “the universe just happened†can you verify that? …how? …..I’m not making a claim you are….I’m speculating….you’re making an “assertionâ€â€¦.”
How am I not applying this logic to my own claims? I’ll reiterate myself by saying, yes, I am making a claim. It is a claim based on the fact that there is no evidence to support the idea of this “God”.
Earlier you wrote: “you made a claim that you have not verified is true”
My claim has evidence to support it, unlike the speculations you have presented, making what I say a valid claim. Some claims cannot be verified as true through empirical evidence (such as many scientific theories) but they have evidence to support them, making them inclined to be true and generally accepted among the scientific/intellectual community.
“speculation†is not subjected to that rule because it is not making a claim”
That means that your speculations hold no substance so they cannot be used to argue with my point. You can’t contend guesses against a valid claim with evidence to support it.
@Russo: Absence of evidence is your proof correct? the fact that there is not one single shred of evidence for god is the evidence you have right? but…..hmmm…..have you verified that? Have you traveled all over the universe and verified that in every square inch of the universe there is no evidence of god? ….nope….now that is not to say there is…that is to say how do you know that there isn’t?
How can you say there is actually “absence of evidence” unless you have looked in every possible place that evidence could exist? and since you can’t….one could argue that you can’t actually say that since its impossible to say evidence doesn’t exist since we can not know if it does or doesn’t…..Again be clear I am not saying it does….but I’m not saying I KNOW it doesn’t….that the thing….I don’t know….”agnosticism”
“Absence of evidence is your proof correct? the fact that there is not one single shred of evidence for god is the evidence you have right? but…..hmmm…..have you verified that? Have you traveled all over the universe and verified that in every square inch of the universe there is no evidence of god?”
You could apply that logic to anything. No one in the scientific/intellectual community has found evidence for a God, therefore there isn’t any. You can’t make an argument out of “There *could* be”, that has no viable substance to it. When you find evidence of God, get back to me.
There “could” be anything if you use that logic, that doesn’t make it true, probable or logical.
@Russo: “When you find evidence of God, get back to me.” but that is my point….I’m not trying to….you are….I don’t think we will ever find evidence so we should proceed like he doesn’t exist but you cannot be certain that he doesn’t because you cannot verify that he doesn’t…. so you can’t apply that logic to speculation because speculation isn’t meant to be evidence of anything….
“There “could†be anything if you use that logic, that doesn’t make it true, probable or logical.”
Never said it was…..I merely just speculated… it was never meant as an argument for either side…
Absolutes … the theists are convinced that their version of god exists … there is no wiggle room.
conversely the atheists and agnostics are making their stance on what has evidence – or lack of – but they are NOT unopposed to the possibility that a god or creator being or alien(s) could exist. Aliens could be misconstrued as “gods”, “angels” etc and so forth. the fact that there is such a wide and vast number of species on just this planet would suggest that there is the possibility of other species in the vastness of the universe. whether they are physically stronger or weaker is of no consequence since if they’ve figured out how to travel the vast distances of space they’d HAVE to be of great intellect and technological advancement that they’d likely have superior knowledge to overcome any short comings and/or deficiencies against our planet of species … especially after studying us for likely centuries.
the reason there is even any “doubt” that can be attacked with the “atheist” beliefs is simply because they are open, however improbably, to the possibility of things that are yet to be known or discovered. the theists pounce on this … but they are never open to the multitude of possibilities that there may not be a god(s) or a mortal species that could have been misconstrued as god or gods due to their likely vast superior technology and/or intellect – which was very likely gained in the same evolutionary trial and error means that we’ve used to advance our society.
This is why there is always the “argument” … not because of who is right or wrong … but because the theist simply rejects the evidence that is right in their face only to further their narrative.
I like the kangaroo pouch universe and the snow globe … both more likely than god and a magic wand 😉 but hey …. i’m open to contrary evidence 🙂
martian dawg
@SB: That’s very true (if absolute verification were necessary to say something is a fact). That’s also why science relies on, and even demands skepticism. There are no absolutes, as dawg has pointed out. There is no such animal as certainty.
@Dawg: I’m not claiming anything as fact. I didn’t say god exists or that he didn’t. I don’t know….but what is wrong with speculating?
@lorax:
certainty does exist; whether a person experiences certainty, has no effect on whether that for which they feel certain, is actually true. It is, as thoroughly evidenced, quite possible for many people to “be certain,” of something that is not actually true, or has no way of being known. Being certain is a subjective experience, and doesn’t magically manifest a truth from conditions where that truth doesn’t already exist.
I like Pum’s comparison to Superman. I mean really, how do we “KNOW” Superman doesn’t exist? Just because he’s not obvious? Just because no one has seen him IRL, or no one who has seen him, has pictures (which could be faked) or video (can also be faked, as evidenced by the films!)?
@Pain:
“…but what is wrong with speculation?”
Nothing, inherently… but due to my understanding of the human psyche, i surmise that “slippery slope” applies in this regard. If you say speculation is great (with which i would be inclined agree), then you will see people “taking license,” and going beyond speculation, into “certainty” and “belief,” and people like that are either unwilling or unable to understand the importance of the nuanced difference between those two things (speculation versus convicted assertion amidst lack of evidence).
@KC – I know you’re not claiming anything as fact – and there is nothing wrong with speculating or positing a hypothesis. I was addressing the point as to why you cannot usually have a reasonable discussion with the more hardcore theist … they have absolute belief – if i tell you i KNOW i see flying pink elephants,there is little evidence you could produces that i will entertain if i believe it as fact that i see flying pink elephants … thus why the general discussion/debate is a constant round robin that leaves everyone in the same place at the end with nothing resolved.
reality dawg
Dawg has arrived. As usual he has said it all. Everybody else can now give up and go home.
@Dawg: I agree 100%…you can’t tell them a thing when it comes to their baseless claims about god…
I mean certainty as a logical term – one cannot be logically certain, or scientifically certain. Those measures depend implicitly on probability, and eschew certainty.