I believe that everyone is worth saving! Every life means something, and sometimes when you’re depressed, you subconsciously put yourself and your friends or family in situations that will validate your feelings. You may accidentally be setting them up in a scenario in which every possible outcome would seem as if your loved ones failed you. Life is hard and pretty damn shitty; I know because most of the time I feel like this too, and I’ve done some terrible things to myself and pushed my friends away because of it. But somewhere, deep inside yourself, try and find that tiny voice that is rooting for YOU; that voice that says you are someone, you are special to someone, and you are worth saving.
noone is worthy. we are fooling ourselves just because we are alive and want to feel good about ourselves. intelligence made us dominant species but it came with a price. we are nothing but genetic material carriers. we invented fairy tales to cope with it. there is nothing good or bad in universe. we just call things good or bad.
Even our efforts to be objective are subjective. In making your analysis you have a predilection toward perceiving value or perceiving no value. But even an insect cut in half will struggle for it’s life. One says it’s biology, the other says it struggles because it wants to live. If it struggles because it wants to live, then it values its own life in some measure.
I think the danger in both positions is to extrapolate a position (which cannot help but be subjective) and apply it broadly as “the answer”. So while you feel your life has no value, Belle can look at you and say the opposite. Both are equally true and equally untrue based upon the criterion used to measure “truth”.
Even our efforts to be objective are subjective. In making your analysis you have a predilection toward perceiving value or perceiving no value. But even an insect cut in half will struggle for it’s life. One says it’s biology, the other says it struggles because it wants to live. If it struggles because it wants to live, then it values its own life in some measure.
I think the danger in both positions is to extrapolate a position (which cannot help but be subjective) and apply it broadly as “the answer”. So while you feel your life has no value, Belle can look at you and say the opposite. Both are equally true and equally untrue based upon the criterion used to measure “truth”.
But that is a completely subjective way of determining value: that it has to “depend on something eternal”? Why is that? It sounds to me you are more on a quest for an absolute truth.
what difference will any decision make? every entity will collapse eventually. even before that, earthlings will all die. it does not matter what they did. nothing we can do can change how universe works. we are just a small point comparing to eternal time and space. how arrogant are we to say that the things we do matter? since we have nothing to lose (we are nothing) it gives us freedom to do anything. this does not mean our actions matter. the absolute truth is we cant control time or space, making us as valuable as bacteria in our blood that we kill with antibiotics
Okay. So we have established that your absolute truths are physics and biology. Your quest is for meaning. Why does meaning or value have to be eternal in order to be valid? There are nuerobiological processes that are perceived as pleasure or pain. You say they are equal, but for the value we place on them. Yet the subjective experience of them, would lead most to tag one as good and the other as bad. The commonality of an electrical shock being unpleasant has been used in the scientific method to determine everything from intelligence/capacity for learning to behavioral theory. It is generally to be understood that for the subject (which is why they are called “subjects” btw) experiencing the stimulus that they place positive value upon the one and negative upon the other. Subjective value, but value just the same, yet they are inherently understood as “good” or “bad”.
You find no value. I have no problem with that. None at all. It is as impudence for you to project your conclusions upon all of creation in all possible realms as you suggest of those who project their conclusions of value in life, yours, mine, and otherwise.
My conclusion is to live and let live. You want to be miserable in your “nothing ever mattered and nothing ever will” philosophy, that’s fine. But why not let others have their own opinions drawn from their own conclusions, unless, of course, you feel yours holds more VALUE.
In the end, we’re here, now. Enjoy the ride or not. Your choice.
I dont want to be miserable. Thats why I want to die. I also said we are free. Everyone has freedom to do whatever they want. It doesnt mean what they do is objectively valuable.
Value needs to be eternal otherwise anything next to eternity is zero. Impact of any action is worthless if it does not last forever. It is like difference between money and gold. Money is valuable only if a number of people is using it and their government controls it. On the other hand gold is valuable because it is not oxidized and there are practical uses of gold. The paper of the money is inherently not valuable but gold itself valuable as it can be used practically. The values that we created are like money, they are only valuable to living humans. They are actually worthless brain signals, chemicals and other materials or whatever the fck they are.
This doesnt entail that I have to suffer, but I suffer and want to die. I actually want to enjoy the ride, but I cant. Other people are making their choices and I have no problem with it. The thing is they are making their choice thinking there is some kind of eternal meaning. Albert Camus suggests that we have to embrace the absurd and live to be happy. However, why is living 50 years less illogical? why is suicide worse than natural causes?
You’re mixing in all sorts of questions together and coming up with a conclusion. Your assumption that for something to have meaning, it would have to have meaning eternally so would require either an eternal observer in order to value it. I disagree that for something to have value, it must have it eternally. The only permanence I might be able to suggest to you, then, are sound waves, which travel in space ad infinitum.
But I believe in temporal value. I believe in rescuing animals. I’ve even saved a drowning bee. It saw value in its life in striving not to drown. I saw value in its life in saving it, not for the sake of a flower it may pollinate, nor for any hope of honey, but because I had compassion on its struggle. The fact that I recall such a randomly small act of kindness, demonstrates that it was worth remembering.
One thing I’ll leave you with though, besides challenging your criterium in estimating value based on its permanence, is that our culture places an inordinate amount of importance on ourselves as individuals. The first microorganisms may have existed solely for the purpose of creating an environment necessary to bring forth more varied life. Dinosaurs may have existed solely for the purpose of creating fossil fuel. We may exist to create an environment so polluted to us that we become extinct, paving the way for an entirely new life form to develop. So you may not see the value, but may indeed have one anyway. Like George Carlin said,
—“[Earth’s] a self-correcting system. [After we’re extinct, the] air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. . .
Could be the only reason the earth allows us to be spawned from it in the first place: it wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it, needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old philosophical question, ‘Why are we here?’ ‘Plastic, assholes.’
So, so, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now.” —
I wish it was funny as a George Carlin show. We are all going to die. The thought drains me. My body wants to live and I want to die. I wish I never knew any of this, unfortunately I do, unfortunately I am alive. It feels like missing your lover who is dead.
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nobody is
I believe that everyone is worth saving! Every life means something, and sometimes when you’re depressed, you subconsciously put yourself and your friends or family in situations that will validate your feelings. You may accidentally be setting them up in a scenario in which every possible outcome would seem as if your loved ones failed you. Life is hard and pretty damn shitty; I know because most of the time I feel like this too, and I’ve done some terrible things to myself and pushed my friends away because of it. But somewhere, deep inside yourself, try and find that tiny voice that is rooting for YOU; that voice that says you are someone, you are special to someone, and you are worth saving.
noone is worthy. we are fooling ourselves just because we are alive and want to feel good about ourselves. intelligence made us dominant species but it came with a price. we are nothing but genetic material carriers. we invented fairy tales to cope with it. there is nothing good or bad in universe. we just call things good or bad.
Even our efforts to be objective are subjective. In making your analysis you have a predilection toward perceiving value or perceiving no value. But even an insect cut in half will struggle for it’s life. One says it’s biology, the other says it struggles because it wants to live. If it struggles because it wants to live, then it values its own life in some measure.
I think the danger in both positions is to extrapolate a position (which cannot help but be subjective) and apply it broadly as “the answer”. So while you feel your life has no value, Belle can look at you and say the opposite. Both are equally true and equally untrue based upon the criterion used to measure “truth”.
Even our efforts to be objective are subjective. In making your analysis you have a predilection toward perceiving value or perceiving no value. But even an insect cut in half will struggle for it’s life. One says it’s biology, the other says it struggles because it wants to live. If it struggles because it wants to live, then it values its own life in some measure.
I think the danger in both positions is to extrapolate a position (which cannot help but be subjective) and apply it broadly as “the answer”. So while you feel your life has no value, Belle can look at you and say the opposite. Both are equally true and equally untrue based upon the criterion used to measure “truth”.
any value should depend on something eternal. without it we cant talk about any value at all. thats why people made religion up.
But that is a completely subjective way of determining value: that it has to “depend on something eternal”? Why is that? It sounds to me you are more on a quest for an absolute truth.
what difference will any decision make? every entity will collapse eventually. even before that, earthlings will all die. it does not matter what they did. nothing we can do can change how universe works. we are just a small point comparing to eternal time and space. how arrogant are we to say that the things we do matter? since we have nothing to lose (we are nothing) it gives us freedom to do anything. this does not mean our actions matter. the absolute truth is we cant control time or space, making us as valuable as bacteria in our blood that we kill with antibiotics
Okay. So we have established that your absolute truths are physics and biology. Your quest is for meaning. Why does meaning or value have to be eternal in order to be valid? There are nuerobiological processes that are perceived as pleasure or pain. You say they are equal, but for the value we place on them. Yet the subjective experience of them, would lead most to tag one as good and the other as bad. The commonality of an electrical shock being unpleasant has been used in the scientific method to determine everything from intelligence/capacity for learning to behavioral theory. It is generally to be understood that for the subject (which is why they are called “subjects” btw) experiencing the stimulus that they place positive value upon the one and negative upon the other. Subjective value, but value just the same, yet they are inherently understood as “good” or “bad”.
You find no value. I have no problem with that. None at all. It is as impudence for you to project your conclusions upon all of creation in all possible realms as you suggest of those who project their conclusions of value in life, yours, mine, and otherwise.
My conclusion is to live and let live. You want to be miserable in your “nothing ever mattered and nothing ever will” philosophy, that’s fine. But why not let others have their own opinions drawn from their own conclusions, unless, of course, you feel yours holds more VALUE.
In the end, we’re here, now. Enjoy the ride or not. Your choice.
I dont want to be miserable. Thats why I want to die. I also said we are free. Everyone has freedom to do whatever they want. It doesnt mean what they do is objectively valuable.
Value needs to be eternal otherwise anything next to eternity is zero. Impact of any action is worthless if it does not last forever. It is like difference between money and gold. Money is valuable only if a number of people is using it and their government controls it. On the other hand gold is valuable because it is not oxidized and there are practical uses of gold. The paper of the money is inherently not valuable but gold itself valuable as it can be used practically. The values that we created are like money, they are only valuable to living humans. They are actually worthless brain signals, chemicals and other materials or whatever the fck they are.
This doesnt entail that I have to suffer, but I suffer and want to die. I actually want to enjoy the ride, but I cant. Other people are making their choices and I have no problem with it. The thing is they are making their choice thinking there is some kind of eternal meaning. Albert Camus suggests that we have to embrace the absurd and live to be happy. However, why is living 50 years less illogical? why is suicide worse than natural causes?
You’re mixing in all sorts of questions together and coming up with a conclusion. Your assumption that for something to have meaning, it would have to have meaning eternally so would require either an eternal observer in order to value it. I disagree that for something to have value, it must have it eternally. The only permanence I might be able to suggest to you, then, are sound waves, which travel in space ad infinitum.
But I believe in temporal value. I believe in rescuing animals. I’ve even saved a drowning bee. It saw value in its life in striving not to drown. I saw value in its life in saving it, not for the sake of a flower it may pollinate, nor for any hope of honey, but because I had compassion on its struggle. The fact that I recall such a randomly small act of kindness, demonstrates that it was worth remembering.
One thing I’ll leave you with though, besides challenging your criterium in estimating value based on its permanence, is that our culture places an inordinate amount of importance on ourselves as individuals. The first microorganisms may have existed solely for the purpose of creating an environment necessary to bring forth more varied life. Dinosaurs may have existed solely for the purpose of creating fossil fuel. We may exist to create an environment so polluted to us that we become extinct, paving the way for an entirely new life form to develop. So you may not see the value, but may indeed have one anyway. Like George Carlin said,
—“[Earth’s] a self-correcting system. [After we’re extinct, the] air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. . .
Could be the only reason the earth allows us to be spawned from it in the first place: it wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it, needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old philosophical question, ‘Why are we here?’ ‘Plastic, assholes.’
So, so, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now.” —
I wish it was funny as a George Carlin show. We are all going to die. The thought drains me. My body wants to live and I want to die. I wish I never knew any of this, unfortunately I do, unfortunately I am alive. It feels like missing your lover who is dead.
@howmany – I know. George Carlin could make even death funny. His quotes are the stuff of legend.