There’s a kind of absurdity that comes from recognizing that you’ve become the lowest of the low. A huge amount of dissonance arises. On the one hand, you’re you, and you’re an essentially good person, right? There are reasons you do the things you do, and you feel at least somewhat justified. You don’t want to hurt anyone, really – at least, not most of the time.
And then you get these moments of distance, when you see yourself through the eyes of others. And you think back on your actions, your motivations, your desires. And you realise “Oh shit, I’m the bad guy! I’m the villain in everyone else’s narrative.”
And that doesn’t prompt you to turn over a new leaf, because you are genuinely rotten. But it does lead to a lot of conflict.
But that’s too simplistic. I’m not just the villain. I’m also a son, and a brother, who cares about his family. I’m not a psychopath, and I’m not purely self-interested. I am a bad person, and I am sick in the head, but I’m not entirely without a conscience.
It’s an odd position to be in, because despite being a rotten person, I think more harm than good would probably come from me killing myself. So in that regard, I shouldn’t do it. But I’m also way to far gone to function as a decent member of society. So in that sense, I should do it.
I think on a fundamental level, I don’t know how to continue to live with myself. How to deal with the pain of wanting to do things that I know would be wrong, and the self-hatred that arises from that. With recognising the twistedness inside of yourself. Without giving in to it, or making it worse. The pain of the emotional isolation that comes from that.
How do you recognise yourself for what you truly are, as a terrible, repulsive, disgusting, broken thing, without wanting to hurl yourself into the nearest chasm, and without giving in to those parts of yourself? That’s what I struggle with. Most of the time I think I probably shouldn’t kill myself, but I also don’t know how I can possibly live with myself.
14 comments
I can definitely relate, often enough I feel like the villain… also one of the dominant negative thoughts in my head right now is “what did I do wrong to deserve this?”
The fact is that most of what people get is undeserved. It’s just the way things are. Yes, objectively someone greatly disliked should be the ones getting alienated, but it’s the people barely holding it together that suffer for it. Then again, I’ve yet to meet an evil person, not for lack of trying.
I figure that me staying alive, whether that’s the best thing, is very much above my paygrade. People want to pay me to play a stupid role. I can know that it is stupid and still need the money so bad that I go for it, that’s how prostitution works (I’m catastrophizing, I don’t perform sexual acts for money, I just sell my body by the hour)
Do you ever go to the zoo, and watch the actually intelligent creatures? Elephants always get to me. They do this thing where they sway, it’s a way of expressing stress, wild elephants don’t do it….. and I feel like that’s the way most of us feel, stressed to the point of acting out, trapped, but what are you going to do? The zoo keepers are really good at checking the locks.
In my case, I know exactly what I did to deserve this. If you can believe in your own innocence even a little, then that’s really something worth hanging on to.
Ya recently I’ve thought about things I’ve done as a kid that I felt were super-cringy and stupid and I wish I never did such dumb things or could’ve taken it back. Part of the problem was I was insecure and I guess I didn’t have anyone close being my guide telling me not to do this or that.
Partly I was a bit of a class clown and blurt out things for laughs and usually I was spot on. But I should’ve been in tune with my senses because I think most of the time I should’ve just kept my mouth shut.
It’s a question of who really remembers or cares. For instance I’ve known hundreds of people during school/university, and few if any would stand out as a sore thumb for making some idiotic mistakes. But I do remember the very funny or intelligent or helpful ones. Otherwise I’ve forgotten the rest.
So I guess I should keep that in context. As bad and dumb as I felt I was, it only mattered in that moment, I was also a kid so it’s expected they’d make a lot of mistakes.
As for yourself you’re aware of your mistakes and clearly regret them. It’s about what you do with your life as you move forward.
I’m going to go with Matt Dillahunty’s advice on this one. There is nothing wrong with thinking about bad, evil, crazy things, we all do and have the freedom to do that, so long as you never act on them.
I’m sure we’ve all met our share of bad/evil people we wish bad things would happen to or fantasize about doing, but again it’s about actions and not ideas/thoughts…no such thing as a thought crime for now.
So don’t feel bad about having evil thoughts as long as you’re not going to do anything to anyone…otherwise ofc if you get caught the state will deal with you.
I’ve seen enough crime related movies to know I’d never want to do anything to lose my freedom and way of life…so I try to avoid bad people as much as I can.
Only if I’m forced into situation where I had to defend my life then I might take some action against the bad guy, but otherwise it’s just not worth it imo.
Like yourself I think about suicide on a constant basis-but not in a dreaded sort of way, (sometimes it is though) but more in a logical way-in that the reasons for ending my life outweigh the reasons to keep living.
But I keep going because I have family that depends on me and vice versa. Plus my life isn’t too bad at this point and there are still goals/ambitions I’d like to achieve.
Also there are some things about life that are beautiful and make it worth going on, simple things like wonderful weather, going on hikes, dating beautiful girls, great food, travel and so on. Not that any of those things are something that I can’t do without, but they make life more enjoyable.
I’m currently renting and planning to either get a house or condo very soon and that should make a huge difference in my life also…if things continue in an upward trajectory thereafter, I’ll just ride it out.
But I’m also ready to call it quits if my life takes heads in the other direction too….I’m not enamored with living as I might’ve been when I was younger. We’ll see how things go in the next few years.
One last point, for me nothing is worse than human or animal suffering at any age. Every person should have the option of leaving this existence if it proves intolerable for them.
We’re so far from that ideal right now-while euthanasia is available in my country (Canada) under certain conditions, it still doesn’t cover the major reasons for not wanting to ‘be’, but hopefully we’ll be more enlightened in time and just give it to anyone who is serious about wanting “off this planet.”
I think there’s a difference between temporarily thinking about an evil thing in response to some wrong done to you, and consistently wanting an evil thing on a deep level, to the extent that you identify with it and it dominates your mindset. It becomes a more core part of your being. Also, when it’s something you’ve acted on in some way in the past, it sticks out as a more definitional part of you.
Hope getting on the property ladder works out for you. I’m for assisted dying in some circumstances, but only in cases where the reasons behind a wish for death are clearly understood and irresolvable. I don’t think it should be an “on demand” service. For everyone else, I suppose I’d prefer the state to turn a blind eye to certain controlled substances,
Indeed, our issues are very different in that regard. Perhaps you feel a compulsion towards doing something evil and you’re unable to ‘turn it off.’
Nietzsche made an interesting point once, he said be careful if you plan to hunt monsters, you could turn into one. An idea I’ve thought about also. Meaning that evil can take control over your life and make you become evil.
Thanks, I hope so as well, sure will beat renting-but ownership comes with its own set of problems too, still better than being under someone else’s roof and paying their mtg instead of your own.
I’m very blessed and fortunate to have a few good friends/family members in my circle who’ve able to hook me up with things (and deals) I could never get otherwise.
It’s not easy to get approved even if you have all your ducks in a row, esp. where I live, where it’s very competitive. Anyways I’m hoping I can get it all wrapped up soon, it’s not a fun process to say the least.
I’m not in a good situation in life currently…so I think once I’ve moved, a lot of pieces should fall into place, like getting a good routine going and hitting the gym again. Then I’ll finally have the time to search for a significant other, which should help make my life feel more complete.
You raise an interesting point about euthanasia, we call it MAID here (medical assistance in dying), but when does one actually know it’s ‘irresolvable?’
Also once you’re gone it’s over, you can never help loved ones who get in a jam but doesn’t want to end their lives. There were at least 3-4 times in my life that I probably would’ve taken ‘Maid’ if it was easily available.
I am glad I was around to help out family members, but that didn’t solve my problems or the need to end my life. At the end of the day we all have to decide for ourselves to go on or not. On the whole for me, esp. at this age, there’s less and less reason to keep going. Perhaps if I was 10-20 years younger it’d make more sense.
But it’s always a judgment call and nobody else can determine how sincere one is about ending their existence. Sure a cooling off period might make sense, but what if for example someone lost their job, family, everybody hates them, they hate their own life, etc…and they’ll end up homeless?
The reason that it isn’t already available on demand is simply because imo 90% of the people out there have never given ‘end of life’ questions some serious thought. Because if people truly understood how bad life can get and where it reaches a point where living no longer makes sense, then they’d all support it.
I also don’t think (like abortion) anyone makes that decision easily. Life has to beat you down, over and over. You have to face serious abuse, tons of failure or other issues until it really dawns on you that you have a bad life and it’s not worth going on.
So the person who decided to opt for Maid has gone through a long thought process already and reached that conclusion, which is why I don’t think they should be hassled to be able to take that option-most people know what they’re doing.
Let’s say someone made a mistake or changed their mind last minute-so what? We all live and die at some point. Nothing is really ‘lost.’ We have 8 billion people on the planet, we don’t really need any more to have a civilization.
If you’re not born into wealth, then you’re going to have to struggle or have good connections to get ahead in life. Most people don’t, some face bad luck, things happen, even to the rich and can drive them in this direction. So imo Maid should be available to anyone for the asking.
Think about all the people on this site who’ve had bad lives for one reason or another. If ‘maid-on-demand’ was available, then they could be free of their unhappy existence.
Yes, I’m very much unable to “turn it off.” I have tried, but it’s a very deep part of me. I can control my responses to some extent, in terms of limiting the damage, and I think I’m better at that these days. But it is a part of me that regularly hijacks my mind, dominates my thinking, and demands some kind of outlet. It’s not just errant thoughts that I can easily dismiss.
I think the main thing I’ve learned about evil is that it feels really good… until it doesn’t. I always used to believe that if something felt good, it couldn’t really be wrong. But I failed to take into account how fucked up I’d become emotionally.
Renting/paying your landlord’s mortgage does indeed suck.
I think I’d have a relatively sympathetic standard for “irresolvable”. If there’s any service that the state could provide to help make someone’s situation bearable within a reasonable period (say 6 months?), then they’d have to try that first. If nothing seemed likely to make it bearable, then they’d give them the “off-switch.”
Of course, all that would depend on a state with the resources to provide citizens with basic support. Various states have provided employment, housing, healthcare, counselling, etc. at various points in history. Some suffering can’t be helped, but a lot of basic issues can be resolved (with enough political will.)
I do think some people make the decision on the spur of the moment, or during a particular mental health crisis, when they’re not thinking rationally. Especially vulnerable young people. And it would be wrong for the state to assist them in executing themselves based on a distorted perception of their lives.
The state has to preserve the value of the individual, to make life worth living. Societies where individual life can be carelessly or arbitrarily snuffed out tend to become less pleasant places to live. It’s not about preserving the number of people, it’s about preserving the sense that the individual has significance.
Wealth can be redistributed, and the struggle can be reduced. But think of the rippling consequences if everyone who ever felt suicidal could do it instantly. All the devastated family members. Suicide spreads suicidal misery to others. And I know people from this site that I’ve talked to who were on the brink, who would’ve gone through with it if they had guaranteed methods, who are now living happy fulfilled lives.
So it’s difficult. In my plan, I wouldn’t be eligible for assisted dying, because I couldn’t disclose the source of my suffering. I suppose I would like to be able to obtain my illicit substances without too much hindrance by the authorities, so that I can off myself as and when I feel the need.
@husk
I can’t recall if you mentioned in your posts if you were seeing a therapist, but it might help. Maybe they can give you drugs like they do for depression.
As for ‘Maid’ it’s a fair point. For some people they could be reacting out of emotion and maybe they don’t actually want to end their lives and need to work with a psychoanalyst.
However I do have an issue with wishful thinking, such as people who like to argue that if you work through your problems, everything will be fine. Or the other argument that the gov’t will help you out.
The reality is that the govt can do very little to assist people and there’s only so much money that can go around.
That’s also why I mentioned a cooling off period for let’s say 7 days to a month or two.
But it should be on a case by case basis. If the person doesn’t feel 100% certain, then tell them to come back later if they are. If they are certain, then they shouldn’t be held back.
While I’m also not keen with the idea of handing it out to everyone like it was candy, but at the same time who is anyone to know what’s in a person’s mind or heart?
Some people just have terrible lives and they’ve tried everything to make it better but it doesn’t improve.
I’ll use myself as an example. I had an amazing childhood, lived in different countries and enjoyed that experience. Once I became a teenager, then I realized the pecking order I was in.
Things got bad for me, not completely there were good times also…but overall it wasn’t a great life. Yes if I ended my life, perhaps my family members might opt for that too, if they were really suffering as well. And ofc they’d be really sad/upset I was gone and left them behind, I’d have guilt about that as well (partly why I stayed alive).
So ya it’s not a ‘happy’ uplifting example, but that’s life. Take a look at prostitutes, they’re abused at home, forced to live on the street, get turned into a sex-slaves and sometimes end up dying in horrible ways.
It’s just better to avoid all that suffering and allow people to “check out” when they see no good future for themselves.
The govt will not provide all of us with a house and an income and all the good things life has to offer. We have to live in the real world and realize that nobody is going to save any of us.
There are rare cases of people winning the lottery or some rich people rescuing others or some other lucky cases, but the vast majority of people don’t have that kind of good fortune.
If we lived in some utopian society where all our needs are taken care of, then I doubt anyone would ever consider suicide unless they had a mental illness. But in the real world life really sucks for some people, esp. those in poverty. Not existing is far better.
So if my life always remained good like when I was a kid, I’d probably never consider suicide, but I do because of all the hardships I had to go through and that’s the reality for billions of people.
Seen a lot of therapists, tried a few drugs. Not sure any of it really helped. Because of the complicated nature of my issues, I have to be very careful when seeking specialist help, and it’s not something I can afford right now anyway.
I agree that not all problems can be worked through, but governments can do a lot more (and have in the past.) Example: we used to have vastly fewer homeless people in my country, because the government provided social housing. Then, it sold that resource off, at knock-down rates, to private landlords. That was a political/ideological choice. It was not a necessity.
I live in one of the richest nations on Earth. There is more than enough money to provide everyone with basic accommodation, nutrition etc, several times over. What we lack is a political system/class willing to make it happen.
People in the grip of an acute mental crisis will feel 100% certain that they want to end it. That doesn’t change the fact that in a few months, they may be on the road to recovery. You have to have teams of experts assessing what’s going on in a person’s life, and in their mind. It’s tricky, but it’s the only way to do it.
Once there’s been a reasonable attempt to improve things (under assessment, with the help of experts), then fine. 6 months is not too long to wait, unless you’re in excruciating physical pain, in which case you get a pass.
The point is that usually, when people “check-out”, the suffering isn’t reduced, it’s just spread onto others.
If a government can find the political will to provide on demand death pills, against the massive resistance of religious and conservative opposition, it can provide basic accommodation and a basic income for those that need it. It can’t provide “all the good things that life has to offer”, but it can provide support for people to pursue those on their own. Nobody needs to win the lottery – you don’t need to be rich to live a decent life.
I hear you and it’s good that at least you sought professional help. I also realize it can get costly esp. for someone on a tight budget and then also the nature of the problem as well.
The trouble is that we have many factions competing for power. So if you get Leftists/socialists in charge, then you can get many social programs that help out the needy.
However you also have Conservatives who want to cut taxes, who hate the poor and want to gut all social programs. This is the same problem in all countries.
So in an ideal world we’d be in agreement, the gov’t would offer a great social safety net. They’d have free education and therapy to help people get back on their feet.
I’m center-Left myself so I’d like to see such things happen. However at the same time I live in the real world with the crappy govts in power today.
This is always why I put these ideas in the ‘wishful thinking’ category, because it is contingent on many societal programs being fixed first in order to allow a utopian situation for people to get help, like cheap or free housing and having their other needs met so they can get on their feet on their own.
I also believe some mental (or physically) ill people will never become independent in which case the govt should provide for their needs.
Given the money thrown away by government’s to foreign countries, or wasted in welfare for the rich/corporations, the developed/richer nations have plenty of cash to wipe out homelessness and to take care of all social issues, including providing free health care.
Getting back to the point of living in reality, govts are corrupt, they’re a tool usually of the rich to benefit themselves. Important changes like Maid are hard-fought, take decades to obtain.
A teenager who was severely abused by family, facing homelessness doesn’t have decades to wait till the govt creates a program to help teens in her situation.
She’s going from a terrible situation into an even worse one. Where’s her knight in shining armor? Where’s here God to save her (if she believed in one)?
Let’s say she had mental problems and can’t hold onto a job? What are her options? Homelessness or suicide.
As religion hopefully dies off in the West, people will become more sensible and civilized and maybe in another 20 to 100 years, we’ll create that utopia some people envision.
But for the rest of us living in the real world with no safety net, no back up plan, no ‘trust fund’ to life off of, this is all we have.
In my case if I lose my family all of a sudden and my job and am unable to support myself, who is going to save me?
You mentioned suffering isn’t reduced but spread to others. That’s only partly true. Firstly the person who opts for Maid, their suffering will finally end. For those they leave behind yes, they’ll feel that loss…maybe their life will be made worse.
I’ll use myself as an example, if I was to “check out” tomorrow then my elderly mother (who lives with me) would be thrown into a crisis. Unfortunately my siblings will not let her live with them because they’re selfish. She’d face living on the street or moving back with her family from her country of origin.
The other option for her is also Maid but because she’s a Christian, suicide for her is off the table as she’s a staunch believer….so she’ll suffer until she dies, because she thinks that’s God’s will. Religion is another great evil in the world that needs elimination, but I digress.
So in short, we can’t rely on wishful thinking, “if the govt had such programs…” Ya sure as the saying goes if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
One bit of wisdom I picked up when I dumped Christianity in my teens is to always live in the real world and deal with reality as it is, not as we’d like it to be or to count on things that aren’t there.
So until we have that great gov’t you mentioned, I think people should focus on making Maid even more accessible, since that is the one thing that will materially change a person’s life, while we wait for the rest of the world to become more civilized.
Ideally I wish there was a suicide pill that anyone could take so they can gtfo of their terrible existence. Think of people who have no running water and they have to walk miles to get it. That’s not a life worth living and they should have the option to leave that hell hole.
One other quick note, I have HBP (high blood pressure) and I am taking pills for it.
But I could’ve experienced a stroke/heart-attack at any point. So others will end up suffering anyways, if I suddenly died from natural causes, let alone using Maid or other way.
Anyone can die suddenly, leaving a hole in people’s lives. My parents are elderly now and I could lose them literally at any time. I’m lucky they’ve lived as long as they have so far.
Ofc people can die from a million other reasons like a car accident. So death is very much a natural part of life.
It makes way more sense to make Maid universal and easily accessible, than to hope and wait for govt to catch up while people suffer in intolerable pain or misery, or are just sick of being alive.
It’s true that there’s always competition between political factions in a democracy. But the range of policies that competition is over (the “overton window”) can be radically shifted, and has been in the past. From the mid 40’s to the 60’s, conservatives in my country broadly accepted the need for government intervention in the economy – state healthcare, state housing, state industry. It took a sustained ideological movement to shift that consensus to the current neoliberal order. I don’t think it’s wishful thinking, utopian, or a pipe-dream to think that those norms can be shifted back. It wouldn’t take that much of a swing. Many of these social programs still exist in some form – they just need to be extended, so fewer people fall through the gaps. It’s not that there’s no safety net – it’s that it’s been ripped to shreds over recent decades.
You could spend your efforts on extending help to abused teens at risk of homelessness. Or you could spend it on extending assisted dying so those teens can kill themselves. In terms of expending financial resources and political capital, I don’t think assisted dying would be much cheaper. And conservatives would be less likely to allow it to pass. So I think it’s less realistic.
For the individual, I agree that it’s good to approach reality as it is, and act accordingly. But in terms of politics and society, you have to be able to recognise how things have been different in the past, and how they can be different in the future. Radical change is necessarily going to come – it has in the past, and it will in the future. The current system is deeply unstable and unsustainable. The only question is the nature of that change, and the direction people push it.
Bereavement by suicide is demonstrably different than bereavement by other forms of death. The trauma caused seems to be far deeper – people are left with feelings of rejection, guilt, anger, regret, resentment. I think it makes it much harder to properly mourn someone. I’ve talked to parents whose adult children killed themselves, and they were some of the saddest people I’ve seen.
@husk
Well you just proved my point in your post-it can take decades for any change to happen, just like it did for allowing Maid.
That’s exactly it, the gov’t is slow, unreliable and takes too long to fix things. It’s far easier to make Maid more accessible than to try to invent, then implement some program to help vulnerable teens facing homelessness, like in the example I gave.
Also what about the people that really do not want to keep living and don’t care for any program that gives them a home, job, etc and needlessly prolongs their life?
It’d be interesting to see a survey of suicidal people and see what they’d decide if they had an alternative. But the reality is that most people don’t have a way out of their situation, esp. in a country like the US which has terrible social programs, if any.
Let’s say there was a magic pill to fix all mental health issues and a suicide pill which would you take? I’d assume most people naturally want to keep living.
The trouble ofc is that it’s a hypothetical and no such pill exists to solve mental illness. The same goes with social programs.
Only in truly Liberal countries like Sweden, Netherlands, Demark would you be lucky enough to have a good social safety net for people, but the a-holes in America don’t want that.
So what I’m saying is that in the real world, for most people (esp not living in socialist nations), there is no program to help them.
Additionally even in western countries as you said yourself, it takes decades to bring such programs online. So what are people who live in desperate situations supposed to do? Find some way to hang on for 20 yrs even though they can’t?
That’s why Maid is the most logical solution right now. Also it doesn’t cost that much, like a few thousand per person, which is in many ways much cheaper than an extended hospital stay for example.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a “death-monger” and think that’s the solution to all our problems. I think if the social programs were there many people would benefit and maybe want to keep living.
However some people have hardened their position and are not interested in artificially prolonging their lives. They’ve decided they are sick of living and so such people should not be prevented from getting easy access to Maid. I believe in an “all of the above” solution…give people every option, including “none of the above” meaning euthanasia.
Sure I’ll grant your point that people hurt more from someone’s death if it resulted from suicide than say a heart attack, because they feel it could’ve been prevented and they blame themselves, but a loss of life would be tragic no matter how it happened.
Sometimes people leave a big hole in other people’s lives when they pass away. However at the end of the day, we cannot live for anyone but ourselves. No one else is in our shoes either and understands our suffering and pain.
While I did choose to stay alive for my family and because non-medically assisted suicide isn’t easy to pull off nor guaranteed, that’s why most of us keep living, except the most desperate people who want “off this train.”
Let’s also not forget that everyone dies. So the parents of the kids who committed suicide will eventually be gone themselves. But nobody should get in the way of others who wish to end their lives, their desires should be respected just as much, if not more than the family that wants them to live.
In an ideal world, suicides would be extremely uncommon, but again, we live in the real world that crushes peoples ‘souls’ and there is no cure for it…so we should at the very least give everyone the means to leave this place.
Nobody asked for their life, they shouldn’t be forced to keep living if they don’t want to, even if the reasons are well-intentioned.
This same thing’s been weighing me down lately. Whether I’m innately evil and if so, what to do to fix it. Will dying fix it or make it worse for them? I’m getting a preview already. I burnt most bridges after quitting previous job by simply changing phone and email, no sm account. I figured the end of career logically precedes the end of life but boy did I underestimate my half-assedness. I’m still very much alive and all I have managed to do is distress the few friends I had. I don’t have guts to reconnect cause I’ll have to answer tough questions and I’m tired of lying.
Went off on a tangent there.
The be/not-to-be thing you seem to be grappling with is too relevant to my condition now. Should have I done it 12 yrs ago? What value was added by living on? I only made more connections after that which means more entanglements. And this will keep on building as I live on. So why not quit here? In my case, there’s an element of sunk cost fallacy in my notion of having come thus far, so might as well go all the way. I have already caused enough damage by living why add to that with a suicide in the family. I’m trying to find a way to do the rest of my time harmlessly. I hope you do too.
I’ve isolated myself to the point where I’ve avoided any entanglements or connections for a long time, outside of immediate family. I wouldn’t recommend it. The loneliness and regret of it is overwhelming, and it only gets worse with time. I don’t think I can stand another 15 years like this.