What’s stopping me? Fear of death/attachment to ideas about life. It’s hard to distinguish between the two. What’s so terrifying about an end to this life?
The finality of it? Knowing it’s something that can’t be undone? A final end to all hopes, dreams, plans, concerns. Letting go, of everything. An end to all that the self is, or thinks it is. Maybe that’s what’s terrifying.
Or is it that I’m afraid it won’t be the end? That the things I’ve done in this life will somehow torment me beyond. That the judgement I’ve been running from for so long will finally hit me. No more running, no more avoidance, no escape. Just having to face the truth of what I’ve done, and the despair of that. Now that’s terrifying.
Those seem like understandable reasons why a person like me wouldn’t kill himself, despite hating who he is and the life he’s created. Whether or not they’re rational/sensible is another question. If death is inevitable, then why delay?
And then I look to the impacts it would have on family, and killing myself seems pretty morally inexcusable as things stand. I’m not in physical agony. I mostly exist in a numb haze of addiction, distraction and denial. The suffering that is created within myself is not that intense. I rarely weep. I still eat. Exchanging my suffering for something more intense for my 3 close family members doesn’t seem justifiable. It doesn’t seem morally like I “should” kill myself. And I’m afraid of killing myself. The sense that I “should” kill myself comes from self-perception – I’m a worthless loser who’s failed in every respect. I’m a terrible person. Hence, I shouldn’t be alive. But I don’t know if that’s sufficient motivation.
I don’t know how to live as this. How to not be consumed by regret, bitterness, and hatred. How to not self-destruct. How to cause myself less suffering. That’s the part of me that wants to die. The part that can’t stand the reality of who I am and what I’ve done. I suppose that’s my “death-drive”. It’s not strong enough yet to overcome the fear. But it is strong enough to sabotage any attempt I make at living. To undermine any desire I have to build a worthwhile life.
10 comments
[Or is it that I’m afraid it won’t be the end? That the things I’ve done in this life will somehow torment me beyond. ]
Why do we talk about a beyond when there is zero evidence for it? In fact all the evidence shows that we’re material beings and when our bodies die, so do we (consciousness).
Talk about afterlife belongs in the same dustbin of history that we dumped voodoo, astrology, ghosts, goblins and the other nonsense humans invented in a prescientific age.
It’s crazy how a bad idea worms its way into people’s minds because it seems true and they can’t seem to accept reality instead.
[That the judgement I’ve been running from for so long will finally hit me. No more running, no more avoidance, no escape. Just having to face the truth of what I’ve done, and the despair of that. Now that’s terrifying.”]
Nah, it’s unlikely you’ll get caught/punished, for whatever evil crimes you did and got away with. Last I read the cops only solve about 2/3rds of their cases, the rest are unsolved, people get away with it…unless their guilt makes them confess.
So if you escaped punishment/justice, just take your win and thank your lucky stars…unless you feel you need to pay for your deeds.
I do appreciate your post overall-you’re a very articulate person. You described how I used to think when I was in high school…sometimes I’ve gotten so wrapped up in my own crazy thinking and unable to find a way out of it.
I also partly blame Christianity for poisoning my mind and making me an idiot in my teen years. At times I overestimated my influence on others…sometimes it was arrogance masquerading as humility, sometimes I was being melodramatic without knowing it. As Oprah once said “I weep for the person I used to be.” Well said.
I wish I had a wise person guiding me, but my parents were socially inept themselves and I learned my social skills the hard way. What I do credit myself for is regaining my confidence and upbeat attitude that I lost during my teen years…I became more my ‘true self’ again.
Then in time I became more refined in time-in the way I communicate with others and carry myself. But it’s not always possible to have civilized conversations with people who don’t work on themselves.
Why do we talk about the beyond? Because it’s the unknown, probably. Because we have limited information about reality, and all we have to rely on ultimately is our own fallible minds. We understand that things aren’t as simple as the world we observe with our senses (as demonstrated by optical illusions etc), but we have no way of knowing for certain what actual reality consists of. We could all be plugged into the matrix and we’d have no way of knowing.
If you’re raised in a society where people expect a “comeuppance”, for their misdeeds to catch up with them, then the mind is primed to speculate about that happening beyond death.
I agree the material evidence suggests we’re material beings. But that’s all we have access to – material evidence. It’s necessarily limited to providing information about “observable” reality. If there is more to reality that’s beyond our senses, any evidence for that would necessarily be inaccessible.
Which isn’t a reason to positively believe in an afterlife. Only to doubt that we have sufficient grounds to rule one out. And into that unknown, the mind’s deepest fears can project.
Regarding punishment in this life, I wouldn’t be surprised if my past caught up with me. Given all the advances in artificial information analysis (“AI”), I can see a near future where computer systems are able to predict people’s past behaviour with overwhelming accuracy, and pass it on to the relevant authorities. When/if that starts happening, I’ve told myself I’ll exit. But who knows whether I’ll have the guts. Of course, it’s also quite possible society will fall apart before then. Which is another scenario I’ve told myself I won’t endure.
“Because we have limited information about reality”
Therefore gods and magical paradises exist as much as this world.
Can you see the flaw in your logic there? Just because we don’t have “total information” of our universe, doesn’t mean that whatever we imagine is real.
What we do know is that there are only 3 dimensions of space, 1 of time, and energy also exists.
It makes absolutely no sense to speculate about other realities that might exist just because we can dream them up. Do Thanos and the Avengers exist because we don’t have all the information about our universe?
Sure we could be in a simulated universe or the matrix, but until we have proof then all we know of is this reality and nothing beyond it.
The mistake people make and it’s the same one that religious people fall for, is that if we can imagine something, then it IS real. That’s flawed and dangerous thinking, esp. when people think a magic diety tells us how to live, who to hate and oppress, etc.
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One only thinks of punishment beyond death because the idea was created in someone’s mind and shared with others…otherwise no such afterlife exists until we have concrete evidence for it.
“If there is more to reality that’s beyond our senses, any evidence for that would necessarily be inaccessible.”
Humans can’t detect radio and gravity waves for instance, but we have instruments that can, so we know they exist.
If there is an alternate realm or dimension, our instruments would find them. If and another reality exists but we cannot access it in anyways, then it’s a moot point because we’ll likely never find it and go there.
As for talk about the afterlife…that’s silly stuff humans invented in a pre-scientific age. So just because we can speculate about such things or invisible creatures doesn’t mean they’re now real or even plausible.
Do fire-breathing dragons exist because we wrote stories about them?
Maybe in the future AI will be able to solve old crimes…but I don’t think we’ll go the way of Minority Report just yet…AI is good at a lot of things but it spits out info that humans already created. I wouldn’t worry about it for now.
As for how you feel about your past…if you haven’t already I’d suggest seeing a therapist about it, where he/she will keep your secrets.
I specifically stated that our lack of information about anything beyond the material/observable is not a reason to positively believe in an afterlife. Only to doubt in our ability to rule one out. I’m basically arguing for scepticism over our ability to know the nature of reality, beyond what we observe. I’m certainly not arguing that this means that anything we speculate might be in that unknown is real. I’m saying it seems like we have no way of knowing.
It may not make sense to speculate about what lies beyond. I’m just saying that’s what the mind does, when faced with the unknowable.
The crucial point about a simulated universe is that there might be no evidence for it. It might be identical to a non-simulated universe. We could never know, either way. I’m not saying it’s real, and I’m not saying it’s not. I’m saying I have no way of knowing, either way. I think that’s a more reasonable approach than trying to make definitive statements about something that’s beyond my knowledge.
If I made the claim that nothing exists that cannot be measured by our current scientific tools, would that seem reasonable to you? Before we had the instruments to measure radio waves, they still existed. Something could exist, and be part of reality, and still be completely unobservable to us.
Just to be absolutely crystal clear once again, I’m not saying that because we can speculate about the unknown, that makes such speculation real. I’m not saying that because I fear some kind of afterlife, that makes it real. I’m saying we have no way of knowing. Possibly it’s irrational for me to allow such fear to hinder me from killing myself. I’m not claiming to be a completely rational being.
It seems to me that computer systems are becoming increasingly adept at correlating vast amounts of information, and detecting underlying patterns (usually for the purpose of marketing.) I’m sure on the basis of my posts on this website alone, a similar system could draw some pretty insightful conclusions, and combine them with corroborating evidence from my real life. I doubt I’d be the first to get caught, but if I see evidence of that kind of thing in the news then it’s time for me to exit.
I’ve seen a couple of therapists over the years about my past. It didn’t really help. Some things you just can’t make ok.
Note that I never claimed if we couldn’t detect radio waves they weren’t real. The ‘reality’ could be that our universe could be a microscopic speck in a snow-globe sitting on the mantle of some super-advanced alien species.
There’s absolutely no way of knowing that…at least with our current technology. There are an infinite numbers of things we cannot know in actual fact.
To discuss them as if they’re possible is nothing more than engaging in pointless mental masterbation.
“It may not make sense to speculate about what lies beyond. I’m just saying that’s what the mind does, when faced with the unknowable.”
Ya so the mind goes places…that doesn’t provide us with any new or useful information really. I’m not trying to be snarky but what point does it serve to imagine such and such possibility could exist, unless it leads to some goal or aim?
In your case it does-it’s a failed argument advanced by theists for thousands of years to justify their belief in the afterlife…and then to fearmonger people into buying into their ideology.
You yourself said that you believe their could be an afterlife and you are terrified of being punished there.
“Or is it that I’m afraid it won’t be the end? That the things I’ve done in this life will somehow torment me beyond….Now that’s terrifying.”
Or have you changed your mind now and accept there is no afterlife, but you just think about unprovable things for the heck of it?
“I’m not saying that because I fear some kind of afterlife, that makes it real. I’m saying we have no way of knowing.”
Correct we have no way of knowing, however we can deduce that since we humans invented these ideas, then there’s a high probability they aren’t real and just a product of our imagination. Not to mention science has not discovered any realities beyond our own.
The multiverse idea postulates an infinite number of universes each with its own set of constants…via anthropic principle, our universe has life because it has the right kinds of conditions for it. However there is no hard evidence, we’ve never detected any other universe aside from our own.
What does it mean when you say we can’t prove or disprove other realms? Then what value is there to even speculate about them? The only reason you did is because you fear such a place might exist…that lingering doubt is enough to make you concerned about the so-called afterlife…and that’s what I’m countering, the faith that people have in idle speculation.
As for AI, I think you’re letting your paranoia get carried away…no such device exists to either know the intimate details of your life and then piece it together with info online. Another ‘what if’ that I think you’re needlessly worrying about.
Regarding therapists, well its good that you tried…I did as well. She was a nice person but at the end of the day they don’t really solve much.
I’m not sure discussing unknowable possibilities is so pointless. I think in some cases at least acknowledging their possibility rather than ruling them out at least allows a degree of useful intellectual humility.
Regardless, my main point was about what the mind does unbidden. Very little of what the mind does is purely rational or logical. Perhaps your own mind is entirely logical and focused on useful goals. If so, I wonder what use you could possibly have for a website like this? Depression, anxiety, even discussing suicide (rather than just going through with it) – none of it is rational.
I do believe that it’s possible there’s some kind of existence beyond death, and I do fear that possibility. I also think about all kinds of other unprovable things, for a variety of psychological reasons.
I don’t think it follows that because a belief originates within the human mind, there’s a high probability of it being false. All theories about reality necessarily originate in the human mind, even if they’re later proven true or false by material evidence. How would current science be able to discover anything beyond material reality, if there was anything to discover?
So would you say we should rule out the existence of the multiverse, because there’s no hard evidence (and it’s unlikely there ever will be)? Or when a philosopher like Nick Bostrum argues that it’s likely that we’re living in a simulation, should we disregard it because there’s no way of materially proving it?
I don’t think it’s too much of a step to turn current technology towards pattern-matching human behaviour. From my understanding tech companies already build up profiles of users through tracing their activity online. Gotta think that sooner or later law enforcement will start utilizing such tools. Not that I spend a huge amount of time worrying about it. Until I actually see it happening, I’m not going to jump the gun and off myself.
“I’m not sure discussing unknowable possibilities is so pointless. I think in some cases at least acknowledging their possibility rather than ruling them out at least allows a degree of useful intellectual humility.”
Bro, if you think it’s worth wasting your time speculating endlessly about magical, invisible paradises, the possibility of Thanos, Luke Skywalker, Zeus, Allah, and all the other nonsense humans invented, then knock yourself out.
But please don’t try to dress up such silly conjectures as some sort of heightened intellectualism. Actually why not run around and tell people IRL that you actually think Jar Jar Binks is real and he’s a Sith Lord in disguise…see how often you get laughed at.
Not that you said or claimed these things are ‘real’….but they’re in the same realm of an afterlife. If you can’t see it’s a bunch of ‘bollocks’ then you can’t see it, no skin off my nose.
“Very little of what the mind does is purely rational or logical. “
I think you may be making some logical error here….we are rational beings in general, but let’s not confuse poor decision-making with the belief in other realms and creatures.
So if that’s what you’re referring to, then we can agree there-and I believe you admitted earlier than you know believing in such things is irrational, so you proved my point and even you realize you’re probably making a mistake, but you prefer to indulge in such thinking anyways.
Additionally, being here is totally rational, since depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation over a bad existence are totally logical things to think about and are grounded in reality-mental illness are all products of the brain/mind.
“I don’t think it follows that because a belief originates within the human mind, there’s a high probability of it being false.”
I’ve always only been referring to unfounded, unprovable beliefs, let’s not confuse that with scientific facts. If you “believe” the Sun will rise tomorrow and that we spin around it and not the other way, these are proven and provable facts.
If you ‘believe’ there is a heaven or a hell that your soul will go to when you die, now you’re in the realm of ‘Idealism.’ These are not scientific facts and in fact the evidence is lacking and to the contrary, since we have no proof of such things.
George Lucas/James Cameron might be ‘geniuses’ for creating Star Wars and the Avatar franchises for example, but just because we can imagine a Naboo or a Pandora, does not make them real, any more than an afterlife.
I think you’re also confusing my denouncing of unprovable ideas with a dismissal of all free intellectual thought, which I’m not doing.
Humanity’s greatest minds like Einstein constantly engaged in imaginative thinking, which lead to their groundbreaking theories and which were later applied in the real world…the atomic bomb/nuclear power, the discovery of antimatter by Dirac, were all reality-based discoveries.
But they weren’t thinking about heaven and hell to get to those discoveries, they imagined things at the atomic level and beyond.
The speculation of a multiverse is a product of scientific thinking and a logical conclusion based on what we know about our universe (and its constants like I mentioned earlier).
Sure anyone can sit around and imagine other universes, but having science lead you there is not the same thing. In fact up until Hubble, we didn’t know that other galaxies (star islands) existed.
We just thought the Milky Way was our universe…it is scientific discovery that expanded our knowledge of the universe…not some guy dreaming things up in his bed that did it, but cold hard science-countless hours of sitting at a telescope at night that lead us there.
You can’t put speculation on the same level of scientific inquiry. Anyone can imagine another dimension, universe or realm…that’s not hard but it doesn’t provide us with anything new…until someone can actually proves such a place is real and that we can go there…now you’ll get yourself a Nobel prize and world fame if you could do that.
I think it’s just naivety and gullibility to buy into these ideas without having them being proven to exist. Like I said thinking about the unprovable adds nothing new, it’s just mental masterbation…probably best done in private. (I’m joking ofc).
But yes I am an empiricist…if we cannot detect it with our senses or instruments, then effectively such things are not real and not worth wasting our time on. People who “believe” in gods, afterlives are usually brainwashed into that kind of thinking and they’re unable to see it.
I know because I used to be one of those people also. Again, to each his/her own. If it makes you ‘happy’ to imagine such places are ‘real’ and you’ll be punished there at some point, so be it…it’s not something I’d worry about, until there is concrete evidence of such a place.
I can’t disagree with you on your last point…it will get scarier for ordinary people as cops use more science/tech to solve crimes…in that case it will become more like the dystopian movies we see…but we’re not there just yet.
Ugh I’m totally segueing here…but this convo made me reflect on my past, my time in university and how I missed out on so many opportunities with beautiful girls that I could’ve picked up there…who might’ve become my s/o today. I managed to date a few girls, but they weren’t what I really wanted-I just went for them because they were more accessible.
It’s true what they say, you’ll look back on those younger years and realize they were the best time of your life. I just don’t get opportunities with girls like that anymore. Wish I could go back and jump on those chances I missed.
I’ve been trying to get myself to a better place in life…but I’ve been just scraping by…life isn’t worth living if you’re merely surviving and not thriving. Nothing I can do but to keep trying to make things better…since I don’t intend to end myself any time soon, unless shtf somehow.
I think we’re largely talking past each other here, and it’s probably a waste of time for both of us.
It seems like you rarely make posts about your own issues. Perhaps that’s something you should try.
Yes I’ve done that before…and I’d end up deleting my posts for one reason or another….but I might do so again-this wasn’t the place to have one of my ‘flashbacks.’
Nothing personal but we are on opposite sides of this argument. You do realize that to believe something is real without evidence is classified as a ‘Delusion’ or mental illness under the DSM?
This isn’t a case of we’re both right, we just see the world differently. There is a right and wrong answer here. Additionally, speculation about other worlds/universes isn’t the issue…we all do it.
It’s when people actually think another realm exists and our souls go there and believe it to be true…is when people commit a logical fallacy. Or if they think a magical invisible man/creature sends them messages…billions of people believe this to be true, that’s why we still have religious wars.
Nonetheless I won’t rehash what we’ve discussed…you’re welcome to reply to what I wrote and I may reply later or we can leave it here. Lastly we’re not talking ‘past each other’…we’re both on topic, but you don’t want to admit that you believe in things that are untrue and you don’t have a valid reason to do so.
I suspect you were brainwashed into it at a young age, that’s why you’ve even admitted it’s irrational to believe such things….a part of you is logical enough to realize your own error.