I find myself constitutionally incapable of making the best of things. No matter how many times I remind myself to focus on doing what I can to improve things, a part of my mind will inevitably fixate on the one thing that is actually impossible for me, that I cannot change. And it’s the only thing that feels meaningful. And the weight of the regret, longing, sadness, it drags me down. And I have to ignore that. Ignore that the one thing that I really want in life is beyond my grasp. Ignore the sadness, longing, regret, despair. And try and function, try and seem like a normal person. Try and think of something to say, other than “All this is pointless.”
In order to kill myself, I would need an extended period of prolonged resolve. Months. And I’m barely capable of 24 hours. I have to be prepared to completely devastate my (increasingly elderly and infirm) parents, my sister with her toddler, to turn their lives upside down and plunge them into despair. I have to be able to overcome my instinctive terror of death, my lingering attachments to ideas of a worthwhile life, along with my fears of something worse beyond death (judgement, punishment, isolation.)
And realistically, it’s just not going to happen. I’m not going to do it. So all I can do is try to make the best of whatever life remains to me. Try to cause myself less suffering. I just can’t figure out how to actually do that. Again and again, I end up trapped in my own misery. A deep part of me wants to be miserable. And I don’t have the self-control to stop it.
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there’s some cross purposes there though, if I’m not mistaken, trying to be something your not vs trying to make the best of what you are. Talk turkey, you and I are never going to be “normal”, that ship sailed a long time ago. So, trying for that, futility incarnate.
What does making the best of it look like I wonder? It’s something I’m still seeking. It isn’t where I am. I’m still struggling, still stand out like a red rubber nose on a ballet dancer. but I figure broken people like us, gather other broken people, form a little broken community, shun the healthy who don’t have to try so hard to fit, figure our own way. How’s that for “making the best?” That’s my idea, anyway.
or maybe I’m just a looney idealist. It’s probably that. I keep reaching for a future that in my heart I doubt just as much as anyone else can be. But it might. That might has kept me grasping for a long time.
It’s not so much trying to “be normal” as trying to blend in and go under the radar. In my case, some of my thoughts and feelings are dangerous to express to others, so I have to at least try to keep an even keel. Aside from just the shame/embarrassment of having a breakdown in public, I don’t want people asking “why?”, because the answers get unpalatable pretty fast.
For me, aside from improving my health, my living situation, my social skills and links, I think “making the best of it” would mostly be causing myself less suffering over things I can’t change. Because it’s totally pointless, and I know that, rationally. But I can’t seem to stop myself. Something around me triggers that part of me, and I just get sucked into this maudlin fixation on the impossible, and how pointless that makes everything else.
I like the idea of broken people helping each other out, and I think it can work for some friendships where people are broken in complimentary ways, but I think when you try to scale it up to community level, it generally becomes untenable. Unless people are only broken in somewhat limited ways. For society to function, you need people able to function socially, get on with each other etc. If everyone’s constantly triggering each other and no one’s getting shit done, things quickly fall apart.
Personally, I’m not sure I fit any better into a community of misfits than a community of normies. Possibly a community made up entirely of socially awkward, massively oversensistive avoidants. Though even there, I’m sure I’d rub some up the wrong way.
@husk- you and I are like two ppl who each fell into a deep dark lonely pit, and instead of trying all we can to climb out, we’re like fuck it, and sit down and mope. we look up and realize it’s damn near improbable (tho not impossible), so we don’t have the will to even try.
what we need is someone throwing us a rope and help us up, but that rope person isn’t coming. i mean, maybe there’s a 1% chance someone would, but it’s not likely.
it’s like ppl who win the lottery and the ppl who never play the lottery. why play the lotto when statistically you won’t ever win and just waste your money? but if we don’t try, we will never win. and those who DO try, maybe they don’t win the powerball, but maybe win thousands, which is still better than not playing like us.
well my metaphors prolly suck, but it’s something like that.
i’ve got no fight left in me, same for you probably.
Yeah, though I suppose in my case it’s more like I spent years digging the pit rather than falling into it, and at some point just found it was too deep to get back out. End result is much the same I guess.
For me, I don’t think there’s a rope long enough. I’ve had all the help and support anyone could reasonably give. Nobody could save me from myself, even if someone wanted to.
I don’t think I’m ever going to “win”, but if I had the consistent resolve, I could probably make things significantly less shitty.
But yeah, I don’t have enough fight in me. I’m just so tired and sad all the time. What little willpower I have goes towards work and essential chores. There’s not much left for improvements. Maybe tomorrow I’ll try and take another step. Or next week. Or next month. Right now, I’m just too tired (and drunk/drowsy from sleeping pills.)
i suppose in my case, no one has ever extended a rope down to me, or at the least, a long enough rope.
exactly. in my case, what little energy i have is spent on maintaining essential daily tasks and chores (shower, cleaning, getting food, etc) that i literally have no energy left for anything else. sure in my case i have my health issues, but also being sad and depressed and feeling little hope also leaves someone completely depleted of all energy and reserves. the end result is that we are in the same place, just have enough energy to keep the broken down train going, but not enough energy or drive to fix the damn train.
yes, i am so so so tired. life is so fucking exhausting…
how can we improve our lives when we have physically and mentally zero energy to get up and do stuff to improve it? like mentally, we are both very intelligent ppl- we know we are headed further south if we do nothing- but doing SOMEthing requires oomph and drive and willpower and hope that we do not have.
what do we do then? our brains know it’s just going to get worse and we’ll stay in misery.
I suppose mentally, we need a sense of meaning to provide the necessary drive to improve our lives. I think that’s the biggest thing I struggle with.
I wake up each day feeling awful, filled with hate, anger and resentment. Like I just want everyone else to die. But I don’t really. I just want to not feel like this anymore. My mind is stuck in a loop of torturing itself. And I think death is the only way to end it. But I’m too scared.
And I don’t have enough meaning in my life to make facing this seem worthwhile. The things my mind does to itself. I feel so lonely, hopeless, and bad inside. And I’ve felt this way for so long, with no hope of it changing.
And I don’t want to mess up the lives of my family by ending it. But they’re not enough to motivate me to pull myself together. I’m a bit part in their lives. Maybe I see them once every couple of weeks. And it’s not like I could ever tell them what’s really going on for me. They barely know who I really am now.
And for me that’s the problem – I can’t ever risk letting anyone really know me. So I have no one in my life. I don’t exist to the rest of the world. I’m not part of it. I don’t matter.
So most of the time, I feel no sense of meaning. I think generally, meaning comes from the way you relate to others. Either through personal friendships and relationships, or from a more general concern for humanity (altruism etc.) And I think I lack the capacity for personal relationships, as well as enough selflessness to strongly care about humanity in general.
“we need a sense of meaning to provide the necessary drive to improve our lives.”
>Yes, but where do we get meaning?
I’ve lost my meaning, my drive, my oomph, bc i’ve realized that everything we’ve ever been taught has been a lie (meritocracy, history, financial structure, etc).
I no longer have the joy and hope and enthusiasm bc humans have failed me over and over, and I do not trust nor believe in humans. Sure, there’s a “few” good ppl still out there, but they’re meaningless if I do not encounter them and they’re not in my lives, only bad ppl (selfish self-serving ppl, which is pretty much everyone).
i don’t see anything getting any better, unless i change my outlook on life, and that’s not something you can really will yourself to change. you views and thoughts generally don’t change, unless something really good or really bad changes your view of life. and unfortunately, life has taught me that life is shit, and that most ppl are also shit.
so what then? i can’t “will” myself to believe humans are wonderful and amazing and blah blah.
i can’t will myself to believe life is hunky dory unless you’re healthy and have enough money. when you’re poor and disabled, which almost always go hand in hand, life is hard and cruel and unfair. and i was born not disabled so this makes life in MORE cruel and unfair, that THIS was done TO me.
anyhow, idk how to proceed fwd in life. i know being bitter and angry doesn’t further my life, yet how do I NOT be bitter and angry given everything that was done to me? i mean, it’s not like i can chance my feelings anyway. i can’t lie to myself and say “this world is great!” and there’s amazing ppl out there!” “so go out and meet some!! “and grab life by the horns!”
idk, moping and being isolated doesn’t help either but i just have no enthusiasm for life nor humans anymore.
Sooo… I know we’ve disagreed on this before, and I’m not going to be able to persuade you one inch, but anyway… I think you’re dividing people too simplistically into “good”, “trustworthy”, and “bad”, “selfish” etc.
Totally acknowledge that you’ve been mistreated to a disproportionate extent by the people in your life, and that it makes sense for that to colour the way you view people. I get that it’s very difficult for you to trust anyone, and it’s true that you can never really know a person with 100% certainty. In theory, even the nicest, sweetest, most spotlessly clean individual could be a serial killer.
I wouldn’t say you should “believe in humans” in some kind of idealistic sense. Most people are self-interested to some extent, because that’s required for survival. I would distinguish between this and people who are entirely selfish, or who give no care whatsoever to the feelings of others. Again, it’s more of a spectrum than a “good/bad” binary. On one end you have genuinely saintly altruists, and on the other sociopaths and narcissists. But most people are somewhere in between. Most people have moral lines which they won’t cross.
I would say that most people won’t go out of their way to fuck you over, unless they’re in desperate circumstances. But they also won’t go out of their way to help or protect you, unless they feel strong enough to do it without exposing themselves to risk.
But there’s very few people who’ve never done a good deed, or never put themselves out in a small way to help somebody else. There’s also very few people who’ve never been needlessly cruel to another person, or haven’t attempted to benefit in small ways at someone else’s expense.
So I’d say that humans can be “wonderful and amazing”, but also awful and cruel. And sometimes you could use all those different words for the same individual, sometimes over the course of one day.
Not going to disagree that life can be cruel and unfair.
I wouldn’t say don’t be bitter and angry. I’m bitter and angry, and I have far less justification than you. Perhaps a start would just be acknowledging that that’s not all there is to life. Your negative experience, though of course significant, is not definitional. Life can be terrible, but it can also be great. People can be awful, but also amazing. Not saying you should let your guard down, or assume the best of people, or naively launch yourself into the arms of others. Just perhaps accept the theoretical possibility that people might surprise you. Even “bad” people.
I’m a “bad” person. I’ve done terrible things. I’ve also gone out of my way to safely release captured field mice into the wild, because I’m way too soft-hearted to hurt a creature like that. I didn’t have to do that. There was no material benefit to me. No one would’ve known either way. But I did it because I cared. And I’m an objectively bad person.
But hey, I’m socially avoidant, so emotionally, everyone reads as “threat” to me. I also have no enthusiasm whatsoever for anything that involves meeting people. It’s just that intellectually, I know that’s not a balanced view of the world. Some people are threatening, in certain situations. And I get that that’s significantly multiplied if you’re female, and disabled, but it basically still holds true. Most people don’t give enough of a fuck to help or harm you most of the time, unless they have a specific reason to.
I’m probably not explaining myself properly as I suck at explaining my thoughts. What society deems as “good” is someone that doesn’t commit crime, follows the law, etc. Or does “nice” acts.
But to me that really isn’t my definition of good. There’s a moral component that I personally add. If someone doesn’t commit outright crimes, that doesn’t automatically make the person good. If the person does “kind” acts like feed the homeless or volunteers, but does it just for show so that her friends will think she’s a nice and amazing person so that she can sink her claws in them to manipulate them, that isn’t a good person in my book. She’s being fake and manipulating ppl. Or ppl who use others. Like none of that is illegal or against the books. But I don’t put those ppl in the “good” category. Like they may not be objectively evil, but they’re not “good” ppl to me. And that’s most ppl.
Like so there’s the “good” category and “bad” category. There’s a lot of ppl society will put in the “good” category that I will put in a 3rd category- the “not so good” category. These ppl are not objectively “bad” (does no crime, etc) but they’re not exactly “good” to me. Idk if I’m making any sense.
Yes I know it creates unhappiness when you believe there aren’t that many “genuinely” good ppl in the world, and you view the world as shit (which it kinda is since economically we are under the thumb of the elites that control the economy and they are screwing the masses over. like a lot of ppl are struggling).
I don’t have a good view of our politicians, leaders, presidents, ppl in power, our billionnaires that screw us over, our lying media, etc.
I know this view isn’t going to make happy- but am I wrong? What if reality isn’t optimistic? What if reality is a life full of corruption and deceit and all of that? I know there’s ppl who just stick their neck in the sand and ignore what they can’t control- and I get that- but I can’t ignore it. Believe me I would if I could.
And hence that’s another problem. I can’t ignore all this shit going on in our life. All these REAL problems. All this REAL corruption.
And yes, those are “skills” needed to survive- homo sapiens did not survive by being “nice.” We are the dominant species bc we are the most bloody-thirsty species and killed all of our competition.
I get that is “life.” Survival of the fittest. And the fittest is usually the most ruthless and selfish- same as cavemen times as it is today.
That’s what bothers me. Usually the assholes in this life are rewarded (promotions, money, etc) and “nice” ppl generally get screwed over. Injustice in this world bothers me. I wish I could just close my eyes and say “whatever” like most ppl do. But I can’t. Injustice and unfairness burns me.
I know I have a depressing view of the world and of humans in general, and thinking most humans are shitty ppl is not a recipe for happiness. (and I would argue that most ppl aren’t “good” even if they aren’t “objectively bad).
Like I get what you’re saying- thinking that most ppl aren’t great ppl- is not going to help me in life, not a recipe for success or happiness. But even if I want to change those thoughts and feelings, it’s not like I can. It’s not a choice. Just like everyone here who has depression doesn’t “choose” to be depressed.
In order for me to see that most ppl aren’t “bad” ppl, I need to see it. With my own eyes. Or have ppl genuinely treat me well. Instead of seeing a minority and I get racist shit thrown at me (literally too- i get rocks and water thrown as me just sitting at a bus stop doing nothing). Instead of seeing a disabled person and someone treating me like absolute crap, I’d need to see most ppl treat me like a human being. My mindset isn’t going to change (even if I desperately want it to)- unless I see humane and compassionate acts from ppl to me.
It doesn’t change my mind how “nice” someone is to someone else- if I’m getting treated like crap from society, then naturally I’m going to hate society and humans.
When I fall down on my face and can’t get up, and DOZENS of ppl see it, and not a SINGLE person comes to help or even ask “are you ok?” yeah, that’s going to color my view of this world and of ppl. That day I managed to hobble home since no one came to help me. I wasn’t able to properly walk for about 2.5 years after that fall. So yeah, that was a pretty bad fall. And ZERO concern or help from the dozens and dozens of ppl who saw me fall down and scream. I had so much trouble just trying to get up and make it home (this was before uber was a thing so getting home wasn’t easy).
No one is obligated to help someone when they fall down. No one is obligated to stop a stabbing or murder (ex Kitty Genovese case), but if someone sees it happen and does absolutely nothing, are they “good” people? It’s true they’re not “bad” ppl since none have committed any legal crimes. But are they “good” people?
I guess the bottom line is that I need to see ppl treat me well, or at least decent, to feel like humans are “good” people. When I’m constantly treated like shit from society, yeah, I’m going to think humans are shit.
When I walk outside, people instantly see me as “the minority,” the “disabled” person (during the times i use my cane out), the weak female. The “poor” person. And ppl treat you accordingly. And it’s ugly.
I get preyed upon by stalkers, get hurled insults by racists, get treated like crap bc I’m poor or don’t dress well.
I’m just fucking sick and tired of it.
**And like I said, even if someone is “good” to others, none of it means a thing if ppl aren’t good to ME. This is basically the crux of my problem.
And add to it the fact that I have a chronic illness- very sickly with immune issues- and having drs/nurses/PAs treat me like absolute shit bc my symptoms aren’t textbook or that I don’t respond to treatment like a normal healthy person- that adds to my shitty view of the world.
The last 9mo has been absolute hell. I did indeed still have an infection after I was given antibiotics, but was not believed. Over and over by this dr and that dr. Hell, they wouldn’t even give me the proper blood and culture tests to PROVE i no longer had an infection. I had all sorts of health issues from that infection and they wouldn’t fucking believe me.
Like I’m at the literal dr office telling them I still have an infection, my wound is LITERALLY still oozing yellow pus, and ALL of the drs keep telling me “you’re fine, you have NO problems, you’re infection is gone”, etc. Meanwhile I’m fucking suffering every second of every day for the last 9mo. With tons of other problems like leg edema which they also brushed off. I literally hadn’t been able to move my toes for MONTHS. But apparently “I’m fine” and “there’s nothing wrong” and “it’s all in my head.”
Like fucking hell. When you go through that, HOW can you have hope and trust in humans anymore? How does one not feel utter frustration and anger and hate?
I just want nothing to do with this shitty world anymore. I just don’t. Yes I know not “every” person is bad, but as long as I continue to have a shit life or have shitty ppl treat me shittily, I am unable to change my worldview.
“All” it takes is for the world to treat me well, and I’ll change my view. And it’s not something as easy as me telling myself that “things are good” and “people are good.” As much as I want to be a happy non-depressed person who has hope for life and this world, no amount of ME force telling myself is going to change my view.
It’s the same when us depressed ppl are told to “just stop thinking depressed.” Our thoughts and views and beliefs can’t be changed, even if we TELL ourselves not to think a certain way. I can tell myself to think happy thoughts and do DBT and CBT and all that, but if I don’t FEEL happy, I am not going to be- despite “telling” myself to think positive thoughts and blah blah.
It’s the same for our view of the world. Our views are not going to change even if we WILL it. Trust me, I’ve tried. It just doesn’t work unless you FEEL it.
I wish I didn’t have a chip on my shoulder. I wish all these things didn’t happen to me, or what ppl did TO me. And I can’t change how I feel. Trust me when I say I have TRIED. You can’t really change how you feel or your thoughts by telling yourself something you don’t believe. Just like telling ourselves “you are happy, think positive thoughts, etc”
I know this mentality of thinking most ppl aren’t “good” people is not a great way to go about in this world. But in MY life, most ppl have not been good to ME. Especially the so-called “good” ppl who have abused me, used me, manipulated me and treated me like crap.
IDK what to do man. I know the ONLY way to change how I feel is for ppl to start treating me “well.” And that’s not necessarily up to me. I can be as nice and sweet as I want, and I’ll still have ppl be dicks to me. Hell, I WAS one of those super nice ppl for most of my life. But all I got in return is ppl using me or screwing me over.
I can be doing nothing but sitting at a bus stop waiting for the bus, but if asshole strangers decide to come harass me and throw rocks at me for no reason other than bc they’re racists, I can’t control that. And ofc I’m going to feel like humans are shit.
And btw, even tho I’m a minority and had racist shit happen to me since I was 7 since my family immigrated to the US, I am not one of those ppl that think ALL white ppl are bad. Just so you know I’m not one of “those” ppl. Hell, I did get racism but much of it wasn’t even from whites (maybe like 1/3 from whites 2/3 by another minority group).
Anyhow, my point is, if ppl are going to treat me shitty just bc I look a certain way, that I obviously can’t change, the HOW do I not think or feel a certain way?
I know I’m rambling, I’ve gone from ppl treating others bad, to ppl treating me bad to being screwed from a horrible medical system we have here in the US to racism. I know I”m all over the place.
Bottom line is that if ALL of this wasn’t happening to me, and if I even had love and support from ONE fucking person, maybe I wouldn’t be so fucking angry and hateful and bitter.
But how do I find someone? I’m in a pickle like you in regards to that, tho obviously in different ways.
NO ONE wants to even be friends with someone who is chronically sick/disabled, or poor, or not working, let alone have a gf that is sick/disabled/poor.
***So if the solution to my depression and angst in this world is LOVE and COMPASSION from fellow humans, but there is NO ONE willing to love me and accept me despite the fact that I am sick/disabled/poor, then what?***
and no, self-love doesn’t work if someone has NEVER been shown love by anyone ever in their life. That’s why all those self-help books don’t work. You can’t love yourself if you’ve never felt love. You can’t love yourself if your life is broken in every way and you don’t have friends or SO’s.
Trust me, I’ve tried all the self-help and self-love advice in all those books. Nothing works. If the world treats you like shit, you’re going to have a shitty view of the world.
and i’ll be honest- i know that i have a shitty view of life rn. tho i can’t control it or change it. i didn’t have this view for MOST of my life- until 2020 or so. i guess the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. got screwed one too many times, and shown the lack of empathy and compassion by “family” and so-called friends.
for most of my life- i did have a decent view of the world and of ppl. but it still didn’t help me (obviously it’s better to have that view than my views now). even when i had a better view of ppl/the world, i still got screwed in one way or another.
@husk- if you’ve read all that, thanks for at least reading it. i know it’s a lot.
also, i know that ppl are on a spectrum and not just “good” or “bad.” that’s why i don’t view what society views as “bad” as “bad” and what society views as “good” good. and yes, most ppl are a mixture. which is why i don’t think there’s many “good” ppl. humans by nature are pretty selfish and crappy.
like you may be objectively bad, and maybe most of the world would write you off if they knew what you did. idk what you did but say just for example you r*ped a girl once, but you’ve never done anything like that again, and you pretty much stay to yourself and don’t do anything to anyone now (and assuming you never did anything bad when you were younger aside from that 1 thing).
and say there’s a person who’s never done anything criminal but she actively uses ppl and manipulates them and plays with their emotion, throws them into depression and panic bc she likes being able to manipulate ppl and likes toying with ppl- is she any better than you? is she a better person? she “helps” out animals but that’s only for show.
the world would put her in the “good” category and you in the bad” category, but ppl like her are insidious. they harm way more ppl. i mean obviously that 1 r*** is wrong but that other woman who is constantly manipulating and using other ppl, and purposely fucking with their emotions bc she gets a kick out of it- i’d put her as worse than that 1 time rapist, bc she is actively harming MANY ppl. and emotional scars are sometimes worse than physical scars. nothing she does is illegal or a crime, and to the outside world, she is seen as a “nice old lady” but she is secretly evil. she even admits to it that it gives her a high being able to deceive ppl and to be able to so easily manipulate them and to toy with their emotions to make them feel shitty.
the world wouldn’t see her anywhere near as bad as the 1 time r*pist. But to me, she is. She’s actively manipulating so many ppl, constantly. And purposely driving them to emotional pain bc she knows how to get to ppl’s pain.
And ppl like her are NEVER found out or outed. They’re so good as masquerading as a “nice” or “sweet” person.
Anyhow, I know my version of “good” and “bad” and “not good” isn’t how the rest of the world views ppl. I know so-called “good” ppl aren’t all that good. And the “bad” ppl aren’t necessarily worse than the so-called “good” ppl or “not so bad” ppl.
“What if reality isn’t optimistic? What if reality is a life full of corruption and deceit and all of that?”
Again, I think you’re being a little too binary. I would say it’s more like corruption and deceit are a persistent part of life (especially when it comes to politics.) But they’re only a part. Most people also have principles, even if they don’t consistently follow them. Most people have some sense of shame – they need to be able to tell themselves that they’re good, even if the evidence suggests otherwise.
“I know there’s ppl who just stick their neck in the sand and ignore what they can’t control- and I get that- but I can’t ignore it. Believe me I would if I could.”
I get that, and I relate – I spend a lot of time worrying about things far beyond my control. I think there’s probably healthier ways of responding to such concerns, but I get that it’s difficult.
“We are the dominant species bc we are the most bloody-thirsty species and killed all of our competition.”
That might be an overly bleak interpretation. I’ve heard some archaeologists say that a key factor in our out-competing other hominid species was our greater capacity for social communication and co-operation between groups. It’s not that we were more vicious or stronger than Neanderthals – it’s that we were more effective hunting animals in larger groups, exchanging information and trading.
“the fittest is usually the most ruthless and selfish- same as cavemen times as it is today.”
Really depends on the circumstances. Some situations reward psychopathic behaviour – wars, famines etc. There’s a reason Genghis Khan has so many descendants today. But I think most of the time, it’s more effective to subtly tie others to you through mutual obligation, whilst otherwise keeping your head down. Making a lot of enemies is a risky strategy. Most of the more effective managers I’ve worked with used a fairly conciliatory approach. Leaders who throw their weight around tend to put people’s backs up.
“if someone sees it happen and does absolutely nothing, are they “good” people?”
No, not at that point anyway. It’s possible that other factors might override their desire to help – fear, some perception of risk etc. But if they’re just too busy to give a shit… no, I wouldn’t say they’re good people in that moment.
“I guess the bottom line is that I need to see ppl treat me well, or at least decent, to feel like humans are “good” people.”
That’s only ever going to be on an individual basis though. You may be fortunate enough to occasionally meet people who will treat you well. I’ve certainly had that fortune at various points in my life. But the vast majority of people just aren’t going to care, one way or another. They may treat you well if they like you and enjoy being around you, but otherwise they’re unlikely to give a fuck.
“people instantly see me as “the minority,” the “disabled” person (during the times i use my cane out), the weak female. The “poor” person. And ppl treat you accordingly. And it’s ugly.”
I hear that. People are tribal. They do shun signs of difference, signs of vulnerability. Often without meaning to or really being conscious of it. But still.
“I can tell myself to think happy thoughts and do DBT and CBT and all that, but if I don’t FEEL happy”
Amen to that. If you’re basic circumstances of life seem unacceptable, it’s going to take some pretty insane reframing to be content with that.
“if asshole strangers decide to come harass me and throw rocks at me for no reason other than bc they’re racists, I can’t control that. And ofc I’m going to feel like humans are shit.”
True. I suppose usually a victim of racist assaults might have enough positive relationships within their own community to avoid generalising such negative experiences out onto humanity as a whole. So they might just feel that “racists are shit” or “the ethnic group of those who targeted me is shit”. But if you don’t have those positive ties to counteract such negative experiences, then I guess it makes sense for the feeling to become more all-encompassing.
“NO ONE wants to even be friends with someone who is chronically sick/disabled, or poor, or not working”
I think that’s putting it a bit strongly, but I appreciate it all makes it much more difficult. You’re limited to people who accept that your chronic illness is real and don’t resent you for not working, as well as those who aren’t too snobby to associate with those poorer than them. I swear to God I’ve had friends in the past who’d fit the bill, but I’m pretty fucking weird so can’t speak to how common they are.
“there is NO ONE willing to love me and accept me despite the fact that I am sick/disabled/poor,”
I’m not sure that’s true, but it might be worth focusing more on the things about you that someone could love, as well as what you’d be prepared to accept in others. Could you love someone who was sick/disabled/poor?
“throws them into depression and panic bc she likes being able to manipulate ppl and likes toying with ppl- is she any better than you? ”
I don’t really have much experience with “emotional abuse” and those who manipulate others to intentionally hurt them, so it’s hard for me to judge. A lot of the time stuff like that seems far more nebulous to me – like you’re allowing yourself to be hurt by interacting with this person, so it seems like less of a violation of consent than something like a physical assault. But I can see how someone like that could do far more damage over the course of a lifetime. I guess both are bad, the physical assault is just more obviously so.
Anyway, wish I could offer better help for your situation. If you ever want to chat, let me know, with the disclaimer that: 1) I’m most definitely not a good person, and 2) I’m not that interesting to talk to.
@husk & @darkness, well, I’m not up, things are temporarily going better, maybe the trend will hold. I’m a creature of maybe, don’t get attached, getting attached is how I got hurt before. but if I got up, I’d keep trying to extend the rope. I’ve been trying to figure out how to negotiate…… geez it was going to be elegant, something about demons. maybe haggle with horrors? Point is, I’m aware of their persistance.
It isn’t going away. Heck, my problems didn’t go away and many of them are materially improved. So money and new shoes don’t cure depression, for the record. They’re nice shoes though.
I still think in both cases you’re looking for life to deliver too high. It doesn’t. The world is pretty damn bleak, a certain amount of accepting that is required to function. Finding a place to fit into that bleak landscape seems to help.
I’m big on metaphor, did ya’ll ever play the Fallout games? Specifically 3 and New Vegas came out around the time I was in college. Life is about that bleak. I always liked when I found someone who had carved out a place in the wasteland. “I’m apocolypse Pete, bring me your bent pipes and I’ll give you bottle caps”, guy found an agle that works for him….. Or that lady that ran a shop in the town built around an unexploded bomb, that’s kinda familiar.
and they all looked tired, and beat up, and no one was particularly effective or good at what they did, but it didn’t matter, because the world was screwed up and bleak….. see I came to the conclusion that’s the real world. I had these high standards because of my intellect, excellence, high efficiency, I could have run my life like a finely oiled machine………. but there’s no call for it.
You’ve got to run yourself for the environment you’re in. If you’re in the wasteland, run yourself at a gentle pace. Oil’s hard to come by, take breaks. Don’t hurry, no one gives a damn.
I don’t know, I feel like there’s some peace to be found there, knowing that nothing matters. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. The secret to happiness really is low expectations, of others and of yourself.
Then again, I’m a total moral relativist, not sure if I believe in good or bad. Whatever makes people happy and healthy, or at least closest to…. that’s what I’d go for. I believe in truth, but I’m not sure if it’s even observable, given humanity’s flaws.
I’m just some dirt that sat up one day and got some ideas. Some day, soon probably (relatively speaking) I’ll go back to being dirt, and some other dirt will get a turn.
It’s good that you’re up, even temporarily. Greater attachment does indeed open the door to greater suffering, though I think it’s very difficult to live without some amount of it.
I guess bleakness is a matter of perspective, and expectation. But yes, if you’re coming from the perspective of the average human mind, that shields itself from the worst horrors, it can be pretty damn bleak. Acceptance of that is a skill I’ve yet to master.
I played the shit out of Fallout 3. You may be right that the wasteland replicates the underlying level of bleakness of this world, with the veneer of civilisation stripped away. But most people do live the majority of their lives within that protective bubble, with their minds focused on family, career, relationships. We’re vault dwellers.
If you can really get yourself to a place of peace with nothing mattering, then that’s enviable. I’m just not sure one can reason themselves there. If some part of your mind stubbornly insists “Wait! This thing is really important!”, I don’t know there’s any amount of self-talk that can actually impact the suffering that arises. But if you’re fortunate enough to have low expectations, then I agree, happiness abounds.
Not sure if I’m a moral relativist. I think “good” and “bad” can loosely be translated into actions that contribute to the wellbeing of others, or the suffering of others. And then you have the motivations behind those actions, and I suppose the motivation to do things that puts others at risk of suffering for your own ends could loosely fit with what we consider “evil”.
I think you have to believe in some sense of “truth”, of reality being a certain way, in order to believe in anything, or make any coherent statement. But I don’t think you can ever be sure of what that truth is. There’s no way of hitting existential bedrock, of knowing with certainty that the rug won’t be pulled from under your feet. There’s just more or less reasonable assumptions.
Wow, I read though this thread and man, I have no idea how to even respond to a lot of this.
But I’ll try anyway (this will probably be long):
I’ve grown up around lots of different types of people, with lots of different perspectives, which I’m grateful for. It’s helped me to see some key things about humanity and how we live as people, despite my utter lacking in the social skill department:
1. Despite growing up as a Christian, but never being baptized, good and evil are really not as binary as the tv shows and movies make it seem as a kid. In congregations, you’re meant to live a certain way, and there are bad things that you should completely abstain from. The problem is, as an adult, the world we currently live in is so gray. Maybe I’m still trying to have some kind of hope in humanity, but human beings are still tending to skew toward “good” in all honesty. As insane as things are getting and as many examples we have about all the shit that’s been going on, there’s a lot of good that happens as well. Sure we hear about all the bad, because that’s what gets engagement. Those headlines are better for people to react to and comment on. The good stuff is drowned out most of the time, especially since there’s economic stress going on worldwide (although I’m in the US so I’ll mention the US mostly). Society is based on the fact that we all as groups of people agree that the US is here, China is here, Jerusalem is here, etc, and agree to the exchanges of goods and services in order for people to not have to hunt and gather, have no access to technology and medicine, etc.
2. To build off of that, despite the complaints and headlines and what not, we are still in probably one of the best times in human history overall. I’ll explain:
Humans live longer now than in any other point in history, relatively speaking (if you’re Christian, purely for the sake of context: you may know how after the forbidden fruit was eaten, humans used to live for centuries and that lifespan got progressively shorter to where it’s exceedingly rare to live past the age of 85-90), when better medicine and the amount we knew about the human body increased and brought it up from previous lows. The technological advancements we’ve made are also stunning. People can sit at a computer and have access to information our forefathers thought was magic. We can work in our house, or start our own businesses easier than ever with the internet. The internet has given us access to forums and chats like here, where we can talk about different subjects, and find others who relate to the most fringe of niches. Globalization is also a thing, which has made it easier to reach out to people halfway across the world.
The problem is that it makes seeing all the bad stuff easier too. Dictators have to lock it down, we’re able to spread false information quickly, things like the current iteration of AI are screwing up search results and flooding our collective pool of knowledge with crap, and because of technology we’re moving closer to a world where greed rules the day and people with more money and power than they’ll ever be able to use in their entire lives, who were young at the point were all of this was new and unregulated are benefiting from all of this.
My point is, we are far removed from having to go out and hunt dangerous animals for food, gather berries and mushrooms, stuck in huts with sticks, and using leaves for clothes, or needing to work purely for food and shelter. We can choose those lifestyles, when it wasn’t a choice before. We don’t have to worry about dying from the common cold or having no way of solving the plague for example. Relatively speaking, despite the amount of homeless people that still exist, we tend to be able to fulfill our most basic needs in some form or another, food, shelter, clothing, and a place to sleep.
Wars still exist all over the world, for stupid reasons. But there’s still some kind of agreement that another world war would be bad for absolutely everyone, and there’s at least a tepid agreement to not let things get to an extinction level event, especially with nuclear weapons being a thing.
3. Because of all of this information we have access to, I feel that it’s resulting in the human races self reflection to increase. We know we have animalistic tendencies. We know what we do to the environment. We have an understanding of how humans think. There is so much information out there, but we are all individuals too. So that then affects how we all think and act as well.
@Eternal, I’ve seen a lot of your posts. You wound up in a fucked situation with a bad disability that’s affected your life in a bad way (oversimplifying I know). And I empathize with you to a degree. But I can’t sit here and say that I can completely relate, because I lack your mental context. However, despite all of that, despite all the issues we have mentally, and all the bad we can possibly use as a rebutal, at the end of the day, as a society, there are things that we learn to accept and deal with in order for the human race to survive.
A series of unspoken rules and regulations we don’t even think about because we’re so accustomed to what modern society is. And it’s because of this modern society we live in. We’re aware of so many little things about life and other people and different ideas, more than any other point in history, the very things that allow future generations to eventually come to be. A lot of the harder stuff has been trivialized and we have more time to try to find more meaning in our lives and have more time for entertainment and pleasures and what not.
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs for the most part is obtainable in this current life we as humans live. The problem is that we should all be able to get to the top of that pyramid, but so much keeps a lot of us at the bottom, some even less than that.
I hope I made sense. I tried to be as objective as possible with my arguements.
I get what you’re saying. It’s just hard for me to feel like we live in a “good time” in history and that things are good, when I am living a shitty meager life. I cannot see life as good when MY life isn’t good. And I really don’t think humans are that great of a species.
“I suppose usually a victim of racist assaults might have enough positive relationships within their own community”
>No, I have issues with my own “group” too. We aren’t really a “community.” Growing up, I actually had mostly white friends.
““NO ONE wants to even be friends with someone who is chronically sick/disabled, or poor, or not working”
I think that’s putting it a bit strongly,”
>No, it’s not. I wasn’t born disabled. I got hit by a car in adulthood. I used to work, make money, live a middle class life. I know how most ppl are. And I know how ppl suddenly drop you the second they realize you are poor/not working/disabled. This is a HUGE issue in the chronically ill community- that is THE issue for everyone there too. I’ve spoken so many chronically ill ppl and they ALL have the same issues.
People expect the young or middle aged to work. Only the old are allowed to not work and be seen as ok. Non working ppl under the age of 65 are seen as parasites by the overwhelming majority of Americans. I can’t speak for what occurs in other countries but I know how the disabled or poor are treated here. I didn’t know what it was like UNTIL i was first poor, then disabled. and being disabled AND poor is a double whammy. ppl treat you like you have the bubonic plague. People really do treat the poor/disabled disgustingly.
I did not have this bleak view about humans until the last 5-10 years. Sure, I was always depressed since I was young, but some ppl still see you as worthwhile as long as you’re a working person.
My disability is for the most part “invisible” and not obvious unless I choose to use a cane or tell someone. I usually let everyone assume I’m a normal working person. It’s like your “secret” @husk. You know if ppl found out they’d want nothing to do with you. Well, in my case, I had “friends” and ppl to hang out with- as long as they assumed I was healthy and working. I do not tell ppl I am sick and not working bc the past 16 years has taught me that every time I tell someone I’m sick and disabled or not working, they instantly flip from a “nice friend” to looking at me like I’m a pariah.
After 16 years of being treated subhuman, just for existing, for being poor and disabled, you eventually see humans in a worse light, bc you actually SEE how ppl really are, the second they find out you’re sick/disabled.
This isn’t something you’re going to see or feel unless it happens to you. Before I quit my job and before I became sick, I would’ve never thought this was a thing either. UNTIL it happens to you and you see how ppl suddenly flip from “friend” to “you are disgusting” the second they find out you’re sick/not working. Especially if you appear “young.”
This happens over and over again, with countless ppl. So yes, ppl are assholes if they are “friends” with you but hate your guts the second they find out you’re not a working member of society. To most ppl, it’s NOT ok to be not working unless you’re elderly or someone who is crippled in a wheelchair. If you can still walk, they don’t think you’re disabled.
People can’t understand that just bc someone is able to walk short distances for a short period of time can still be disabled or have difficultly. Like back when I couldn’t bend my legs to even take my underwear off to shower, I could still briefly manage to “slide” my feet across the floor so I could get food and whatnot- but when ppl see me doing that, they think I can walk and can’t understand how I am disabled and unable to do things. Like ppl can’t comprehend that just bc someone appears to walk that they don’t have any issues with walking or doing anything. People don’t understand disability unless someone is fully crippled and in a wheelchair. Most disabled ppl are still able to move around, but have difficulty in doing many physical things. This is something ppl just have no clue on. If someone sees me walking one day, they think in their head “well she’s not fucking disabled” and they think you’re lying.
It’s hard to explain but ppl treat the chronically ill like shit bc ppl are too stupid and ignorant to realize someone can still have SOME function in their legs while that person has lost SOME or A LOT of functionality in their legs/arms/whatever parts. Talk about binary- ppl think either completely disabled or NOT disabled at all. Disability is a spectrum. It’s like getting old- the older we get, the more functionality we lose. Ppl get old ppl can’t do some stuff but can do other stuff, and it’s ok, but not when they see a young person. A young person who they see not doing something everyone else is doing, like working or doing their own laundry or whatever, is seen as pure laziness in their eyes.
This is something everyone in the chronically ill community face. It’s not just me. Anyone not elderly and not “obviously” disabled are seen as lazy POS’s. And even if someone has been your “friend” for years, the second you tell them you’re sick/not working, they instantly flip on you and treat you worse than dirt. Same with ppl who you tell at the start when you meet thing.
When you see this ppl treat you like this every day for the last 16yrs, you are for sure going to view humans in a different light.
I never thought ppl were like this until this happen to me. I never had this view of humans until this happened to me. I was a normal able-bodied working person until I wasn’t. And suddenly the world goes from treating you like a normal every day person to a pariah.
–>How do I view humans NOT in a bad light when I am constantly treated like crap? Just for existing.
the disabled and not working are treated like trash. and bc we are viewed as trash/not worthy, ppl feel justified in treating us like dirt. to most ppl, ppl are only worthy when they’re “contributing to society.” Sick/disabled ppl can’t work. So they treat us like absolute shit.
“Anyway, wish I could offer better help for your situation. If you ever want to chat, let me know, with the disclaimer that: 1) I’m most definitely not a good person, ”
>I’m not looking for help here. I mean I do want help IRL from RL ppl, but in online forums, the most I ask is for ppl to understand and not treat me like shit. All of this is just venting, bc I am frustrated, bc I am stuck in a rock and a hard place. The funny thing is that it is so hard to even have anyone understand me or my situation. I post often here so some ppl here kinda get that, but IRL I get ZERO compassion and 100% judgement. How does one not feel like the world is shit when all you get is ppl treating you like shit?
I view humans as ugly bc the person who treats other’s well, is seen as a “good” person by the rest of society, but the SAME treats me or ppl like me like absolute shit, just for existing, just for being sick/disabled, then no, that person is NOT good in my books.
>I actually find it refreshing when ppl admit they’re bad. I’m tired of shitty ppl constantly claiming they’re good when in fact they are not. Yes, everyone has to be able to live with themselves so they deny they’re bad, or at least, not good ppl. You admit you’re bad, so at least that’s honest. And yes, I get what you’re saying. Ppl like you are bad, but that doesn’t mean everyone else/ppl who don’t do what you do are “good” either. There’s more than the simple good/bad basket. There’s the “not great” / “not so good” basket too. And many ppl are in that category.
>I am on SP bc idk what else to do. I am completely frustrated with life/human nature. I come here to vent and to have ppl actually understand me and maybe even have some compassion. Idk if you’re capable of compassion and I’m not looking for that specifically in you or anything. It’s funny that I have to come online, escape to a virtual world, just to be treated like a human being.
Bc IRL is so shitty, this is the best I can get- to go online to at least not be treated like a POS for not working and not “contributing to society.” To not be judged and treated like a parasite. I mean, it’s not like it’s my choice to get sick or become disabled. But we are treated IRL by ppl as if it’s all OUR fault. People literally feel like it’s all our own faults. So yeah, I feel VERY bitter towards ppl.
” There’s the “not great” / “not so good” basket too. And many ppl are in that category.”
>Personally, I think MOST ppl fall in the “not so good” category. I’m sure the rest of the world disagrees with me, but I base it off MY experience. If someone treats able bodied working ppl well, but treats ppl like me like shit, are they good? NO. But the rest of the world only sees their “good” side so they’re all seen as “good.”
But I see how ppl REALLY are.