So I really don’t have any reason to continue living. I don’t believe in God, and think the chances of our conscious dying when we die is very likely. We are our thoughts, so we are our brain, so when our brain dies, we die as our conscious become unconscious. You can’t be aware while unconscious, not of yourself, or anything. That may seem obvious, but many people don’t realize or understand this. So that means that we, in a sense, will no longer exist after we die. Our thoughts will stop, and we are our thoughts, so we stop. There will be no darkness or emptiness, just nothing. We won’t exist to experience the nothing.
So why should I keep living if it doesn’t matter whether I die now, or in 70 years? Either way, I’ll still end up in the same place. Some may say we should keep living to try to make the world a better place, but what would it matter if the world is a better place if I will stop existing to experience the world. Or that we should keep living for those we love? That doesn’t matter either, because some day they’ll be dead too and won’t exist either. And it doesn’t matter if by taking my life I hurt others and make them sad during their life, because in the end it wont matter. And why live just to have fun and be happy? It won’t matter when I’m no longer conscious, and unable to think about the happiness or fun I had in life. It will all be the same.
The only reason I’m alive right now is because I’m too scared to take my life, I’m actually alive out of cowardice. Taking my life would be the bravest thing I could do. Also I’m alive for the same reason I would have for taking my life: that it doesn’t matter when we die because we’ll stop existing no matter what and it wont matter. So why not just live life while I have it, just for the hell of it. Like it may not matter at all, but why not? The problem is, this reason stops standing whenever I’m sad or in a bad mood because all of a sudden nothingness seems better than the pain of life, and it doesn’t matter anyway.
And what if there is a God and an afterlife? Well I don’t think any loving God would punish me for being logical and coming to such a conclusion with the intellect and mind he has given me. And who knows if God would even be anything like any religion has described Him. Maybe god isn’t even a being with a personality at all. Or maybe God wouldn’t be “good”. We can’t actually ever know these things in life. We can spend our whole life studying and researching about it, but we can’t ever actually know real truth, or comprehend what we are, were we came from, what the meaning of life is. Maybe we can logically claim a religious belief, but we can’t actually fully know with certainty anything to be ultimately true. But for the sake of this post, I’d like to assume that what follows death is a state of unconsciousness and not existing, as that’s the only thing that science can prove as we can’t measure or physically know a “soul”.
So would it not be rational and logical to take my life?
18 comments
Your logic is unsound.
1) As you said yourself, you have the same logic for living as you do for killing yourself.
2) However, that means that your logic points to both living and dying.
3) Living and dying cannot happen simultaneously.
4) Thus, your logic leads to a contradiction. Thus, your logic is unsound.
There, disproved.
While in a dreamless sleeping state, you’re not aware of anything yet you still retain consciousness. Consciousness can be present without your awareness of it.
Its the part about consciousness transcending death that I can’t figure out. After all bodily functions cease, does a non physical vestige of the self persist, independent and free from physical laws? Idk. I have no memory of having lived and died before.
i pretty much agree with you. its the same way i have thought about this, including the part about being to big of a coward to actually kill myself.
@Diem S. Sky
but it doesn’t stand when I use that reason to live because when I’m sad or in a bad mood it’s no longer a valid reason to live. And I’m just wondering if there’s any other reason to live other than that.
Hmm…reason to live, huh?
A few years ago, I would have said true love.
A year ago, I would have said martial arts or self discipline.
Now…hmm…brandy, I suppose?
#3 is false.
Living and dying occur simultaneously.
You have to be alive to be “dying.” You have to be alive first, to then die.
But you don’t have to live, to die.
#4 is debatable. There are plenty of true contradictions in the world. Being illogical doesn’t necessarily make something untrue. Theism/religion is one of the major obvious examples of that.
What???
The antonym of living is dying.
opposite of alive = not alive = dead.
opposite of living = not living = dying.
#4 is the basis of mathematical proofs by contradiction. If an assumption leads to a contradiction, the assumption must be false.
ur post describes my exact thoughts on life.i mean exactly.i dont know how to advice u because im in the posiition.ur not alone on ur preceptions of this.
@C4
true, we can be conscious without being conscious of it, such as all other animals are. They are conscious and have a sense of “self”, but they’re not conscious of being conscious as we are. But what reason could we have to believe we’d still be conscious after death? If you think about it, what are you? You are your thoughts, which are composed of your memories, your emotions, and your experiences. Try to, right now, identify yourself. Don’t just state your name, you’re not your name. I mean grasp what what is really you, rather than the things you do or experience. Like try to locate in your consciousness the “I” that is you, the person feeling hot or cold, thinking your thoughts, hearing sounds. Not your feelings, sensations, thought, memories, but the person, the self, who is having them. You probably can’t. This is because we are just a collection of our experiences and thoughts. And all of these are byproducts of our brain processing what the body experiences. So when our body dies and our brain dies, we die.
it’s hilarious that you missed the distinction.
Living isn’t the same as alive.
Dying isn’t the same as dead.
Everyone who lives, truly dies; not everyone who dies, has truly lived.
Living and Dying only happen while Alive. Dead is what comes after.
The fact that people embrace illogical and false assumptions, often through a condition known as “cognitive dissonance,” despite being contradictory, does not mean they have therefore not embraced illogical and false assumptions.
There are plenty of people going through life in the midst of cognitive dissonance. This is an example of how being contradictory doesn’t always equal being false, even if their assumptions ARE false AND contradictory. They still embrace them, and that still causes effects to their shared environment, nonetheless. Due to linguistic limitations, we can call that a “true contradiction,” because the fact that “it” is contradictory, somehow doesn’t make it any less true.
I think one of the biggest problems is that people, in general, aren’t both willing and able to be adequately precise in their communications, regardless whether the fault leans more toward the former or the latter.
-_-
Yes, but I don’t really care about living and dying happening while alive. Living and dying are opposites. That in and of itself establishes a contradiction.
Yes, I know all about cognitive dissonance, but our opening poster wants a logical way to disprove his/her suicidal “rationality”. So I gave a mathematically logical proof using propositional logic which is pretty good. So cognitive dissonance is not really my problem. The opening poster wants logic, clevername. Complicating the matter by bringing up his/her individual psychology is really pretty pointless.
Your complaint about communication, while drawing my sympathy, is not something any of us can really help. Did you know that most recently the Oxford dictionary added a new definition of “literally”. The new definition of literally is “figuratively”….
My point? You should talk to linguists about linguistics.
@WhatIsEvenHappening; I get what you’re saying. Where you use the word “self” I would substitute it for the word “identity”. Your ego, where you fit in compared to everyone else. I tend to think of the self as something that’s a part of something larger. Something impersonal, part of a system that’s not interested in personal identities.
Eh…
Good luck with whatever you decide.
It’s not the linguists’ fault that the typical person misuses language, and isn’t bothered by imprecision enough to alter their own tendencies.
Actually, it is something that “any of us” can really help; in fact, “any of us” are the only ones capable of changing that.
How can you not care about living and dying happening while alive? “While alive” is the only time you’ll ever be Able to care, and the only time you’ll ever experience anything from either of those two conditions!
Sure, “living and dying are opposites,” but that doesn’t mean they happen any less simultaneously. And simultaneous are exactly what they usually are; except in the case where someone is not “truly living,” but is dying just by being alive as time passes, age increases, and the body’s ability to repair and grow itself gradually declines.
Part of my point, here, is that the OP shouldn’t be asking everyone else to validate her own rationality. Rationality is something you have to learn individually, and critical thinking applies. I don’t understand the purpose of seeking validation from others, if you already think your own rationality is correct. If you are unsure, then you should continue contemplating it, because no one else is going to understand what goes on inside your body and your brain. If you are sure, then you don’t need to ask anyone any question about whether or not your rationality is sound, or at the very least, acceptable to You, yourself, since that is ultimately the only version of rationality that matters: Yours.
When people don’t bother to be precise, the things we need others to understand, in order to improve things, never make it across the translation barrier; and then much debate ensues, based on semantics and pedantry, due to precisely the original problem: someone doesn’t bother to be precise; and further, what’s the use of attempting to communicate with anyone who can’t be bothered to strive for accurate communication? (rhetorical!)
And that’s only half the battle. Even when we strive to express precisely, the interpreter often warps the intended meaning, due to their own bias and prejudices, or perhaps even sheer ignorance, and completely misses the point.
But let’s go back to the question itself:
“So would it not be rational and logical to take my life?”
Sometimes, what is rational, will not find approval in those taught to think irrationally.
AND: you already possess and inhabit your own life; you cannot “take” that from yourself. You can only throw it away, cast it out, make it stop occurring. It’s a stupid way of expression. Your life belongs to ONLY YOU; you cannot “take” it “from” yourself. The only reason people use “take your life,” is because they feel like you’re taking something that belongs to them; it doesn’t.
@clevername
I do think that language is a beautiful thing, but I myself have never really been skilled in it. Perhaps I could educate myself on it, but I’ve never really had a way with words. It has never come easy to me, and I’ve always concerned myself with other things to learn and think about in my spare time. But is the point of language not to express and communicate an idea? When I said “take my life”, you knew what I meant, and therefor it was a successful communication. When Diem S. Sky said “living and dying” I understood what he meant, the idea he was aiming to get across. So even if it wasn’t done as precisely as it could have been, was it not still a successful use of language as it communicated an idea?
And I wasn’t looking for validation in my reasoning, but rather more ideas and opinions. As humans, we can often “reason” things with delusions, or a fault in our logic. Would it not be wise to seek other knowledge, other opinions, other ideas? And I put the sentence “So would it not be rational and logical to take my life?” in the form of a question as to provoke others opinions and thoughts. I find when things are in the form of a question, the more likely it is that the feedback we receive will consist of other opinions and ideas.
I often find things I’ve reasoned to be true and believed in the past, to no longer seem true or logical to me anymore now. This happens as others have proven me wrong, thus knocking down the wall in my thought and reasoning that caused me to have the previous conclusion, so I then grew in my thinking and kept reasoning until coming to another conclusion(which may yet again be temporary). Either that, or they reveal to me a whole other perspective I hadn’t considered before, which would lead me to different thinking, different solutions, different opinions, etc.
It’s up to you to determine whether your own perspective is based on delusion. As i’ve learned in countless discussions, debates and arguments with christians, it is the personal responsibility of the individual, to discover and acknowledge, and then subsequently correct (or not) their own perceptual bases and premises.
Linguistics is more about necessity than beauty. I think it’s rather absurd that people so typically become dismissive about the accuracy of their own language, while then making statements like “but you know/knew what i mean/t!”
I can only interpret what you actually say. If you want me (or anyone) to understand something, the burden of precision; the requirement to ensure your idea reaches my mind as cleanly as possible; should be yours. If you disregard the need for precision, then either i interpret it as you saying exactly what you said, even if it isn’t what you meant, or i have to ask a bunch of clarification questions. That becomes incredibly tedious. That’s part of why people stop listening, and start avoiding, and complain about people “whining” about their “problems.”
Say what you mean, mean what you say. If that’s hard, work on it. The alternative is to continue reckless communication, or just stop altogether, resigning yourself to the idea that “no one understands, it’s no use.”
I can’t call myself an “ace communicator,” but i didn’t reach this level by not trying. I suppose i realized very early in my life, just how important communication precision can be.
That said… i generally agree with your approach, and i like your challenge to “find the ‘i’ inside you,” about how fleeting and unsubstantial “identity” can really be.
THAT said… I don’t think whether or not your reasoning is “rational,” is in any way significant or relevant.
If you want to end your life… why does “rational” even matter? Ultimately, only you can decide that. If that matters to you, then by all means, proceed to hone and develop your understanding of rationality, reason, logic, until you are satisfied with your stance and/or interpretation.
Aside from the life that goes on without us, and the chance to do whatever you want/can while life persists, there isn’t really any reason not to skip to the end.
The only ‘real’ reason to live, is to try to do something you want to do, while you’re alive to do so. That chance is so valuable, because we can’t reasonably expect to ever have that chance again, and we can’t replenish what is spent living through the passage of time.
See what’s out there, decide if there’s anything you want. If so, try to do it. If not… decide if there’s anything else worth trying.
I would rather try to find, as long as there are options, than die with question still remaining. religions claim to have a way to know the truth. actually i once read somewhere that there are 4 ways to know truth: science, art, philosophy and religion. i prefer religion because i find it easier and actually doable, but it may also be a combination of all.
they say you can literally leave your body and roam as a free spirit and then enter again. they call it ‘rehearsing death’, so that when the actual death come you can do it “correctly”. but it can also act like a proof that something exists beyond death (ofcourse only after one has actually experienced it). there is another thing that can act like a proof, its called ‘jatiya smaram’ (or something like that). in it, thru certain practice, one can recall his previous lives.
many people prefer unconscious death, but they put a special emphasis that atleast at moment of death one should try to remain conscious, so that he can have a chance to see the mystery.
btw i don’t know whether these methods that i wrote actually work or even exist. i just read them, from a source i trust.
Existence is unknowable. It literally doesn’t make sense to be born. It doesn’t make sense for the world to exist. It doesn’t make sense to not exist. The whole situation is absurd. Yet I am here. What am I? What are you? No idea. It’s mystery. It’s incomprehensible. Is there a purpose? What is “purpose”? What is language? What is everything? You can’t express it because this is inexpressible.
If you think of it, nothing really makes sense. No, really, nothing makes sense. Do emotions make sense? Why do you “want” to live? It’s not because it makes sense. All this place, your existence is just literally “wtf”. It doesn’t even matter. I don’t know why I was born, I don’t know why I am here, and I don’t know why I will die. I don’t know where I was before I was born and I don’t know where I am after I die. I don’t know why I am a human and not something else. I don’t know why I am the person I am and not someone else. I don’t know what space or time is. I don’t know reality. I don’t know who “I” is. I don’t know what “I” is. It’s a big fuckup, whatever that is.
Question is why haven’t you killed yourself yet? It’s no big deal right? Don’t try to rationalize it. You can kill yourself anytime. It’s not brave, it’s not coward, you just do it. Yet you don’t, it’s not because of anything. Things are or aren’t. Reason is not a place for this, or is it. Why I writing this? Who the fuck knows. I wouldn’t be writing this if I was in pain right now, right? I wouldn’t be writing this if I lived in a different world or time.
This topic cannot be discussed in any way. So what are we discussing right now? Well, it something else, but not that.