So “my” family members often target me with the same question: “How can you live if you do NOT …?” Ok I will not bore you with the triviality of my life, just note the negativity in the question. In these days, I often catch myself contemplating about the meaning of my life. There are two ways to look at it, from my standpoint and from the world standpoint.
Regarding myself, things are very simple. I feel empty. The benefits (happiness and such) are there but I thing the cost of living is greater. To myself only, my life has negative value.
Now for other people, will my existence be somewhat valuable? Does my living benefit for the surrounding area as a whole? Most people are “good” people, in the sense that they will contribute something meaningful to the society. Unfortunately I fear that I don’t belong to that group.
I am sure you are all familiar with the concept of evolution. Natural selection is a integral part of it. The fittest (aka strong, smart, healthy) survive ( I say the fittest but I mean the majority since most people should turn out to be fine under society’s guidance). Of course you will not have all individual stay alive for all expected life span, that will defeat the purpose. Death is necessary evil after all. To keep the population in check, nature has hunger, disease, war, etc. Hunger will kill those in areas where we can’t sustain a large numbers of people or people whose endurances are not strong. Diseases will often target people with weak health system. And wars will result in higher rate of casualties for the weaker group (at least in the basic form of wars). These are very simplified thoughts of mine and I’m sure those bad things are largely incriminating and inefficient. They also do not exist solely for the sake of killing, I know. I just want to point out humanity doesn’t produce children with the expectation that 100% of them will make out successfully. The children will fight, will press on, most will make it, but a few will be lost causes. Then life goes on.
I’m aware that not all people who kill themselves are hopeless, I’m sure some can be saved and some can saved themselves if they want to live. Nevertheless, in my mind suicide is the most efficient method of natural elimination. The person in question know himself better than anyone, he will (usually) not involve others. There are so many checks to deter people from doing it. You will be looked down, the means to kill yourself are hard to come by and people will naturally stop you. If you still proceed, the chances are that you are beyond hope. People think suicide is bad, and that’s fine, someone will be hurt. However, I believe as a whole, society is better with suicide than without it.
Now if you think I promote suicide then I’m sorry. That’s really not my intention. I admire people who have the will to survive in this harsh world. I throw away my life but then I’m not dead yet (still writing this). Anyway, if you are still reading this then I would like to say thank you. Yes, thank for reading.
11 comments
I can’t help but smile after having read this post. I haven’t heard about simpletons who committed suicide. Also, it is remarkable that intelligent and very successful people have higher chances to develop various mental disorders. In addition, people who attempt suicide are mostly healthy individuals. It has nothing to do with any evolution, however Freud tried to explain it in this way. But he tried to cure a patient who was deadly afraid of dogs and failed, too. Don’t listen to this bullshit. Should one be eliminated just because he has more brain cells or more neurological relays or whatever it is called? That he doesn’t feel like others do, is it enough to kill him?
Depression is an illnesses as cancer, tumor or bronchitis. You need to cure it.
And btw, from my personal experience, the only truly happy people are selfish stupid people.
Maybe you see things different from me. Let me try to make it clear then: I’m taking about suicide and not depression.
Your first point is about simpletons. I will have to tell you that I live in Vietnam, a small Asian country near China. And yes, farmers or others who do very poor jobs do commit suicides, though I agree those who have higher education will kill themselves more often. My idea is that poor people (in my country at least) don’t do it because they don’t thing about it and don’t know (no internet and such) and are very easily influenced by those around. I don’t thing that people who commit suicide or just have depression are inherently better or smarter, they can work alot (intellectual jobs), have more complicated relationships or living in a complex culture. Besides, if depression is an illness, then I wouldn’t say that people with depression are the most healthy. But again, I’m talking about suicide. I don’t know about Freud and his patient. And no I’m not saying people should be eliminated, I’m saying that if one kill oneself then it isn’t a social problem.
And last, I’m sure all kind of people can be happy. I’m selfish and I don’t thing it’s bad. As for stupid, well there are always jobs that are not demanding on the brain, so there are no reason why they can’t be happy.
Darling, you don’t get what I meant. You can have PhD and be a simpleton. It doesn’t depend on whether or not you have a degree or you are a blue-collar worker or a white-collar one. It depends on what kind of person you are. Only simpletons can deal with everything what’s currently going on in the world, and it is why their lives seem to be so great. They aren’t, in fact.
Of course they are healthy physically. There are two kinds of health – mental and physical health. I was in the psych ward half a year ago and there were like 20 more people after attempting; none was seriously ill. Suicide associated with any physical illness is another thing, because it is physical pain that leads to suicidal thoughts.
Weeell, I think that everyone is responsible for everyone. That’s true, because it is this sick society which makes people take their lives away; the society is the perpetrator, and as it has sprockets – people, they are responsible as well.
This is one of my favorite topics because the answer (whatever that may be) will determine whether I live or die. (1) If I can convince myself that my life will contribute to the advancement/perfection of the world then I’ll live. Conversely (2) if I realize that I am a detriment to the progress of the world, then I’ll end myself. And (3) is the most terrifying: if I conclude that the “progress” of the world, i.e. evolution, is heading in a bad direction then I’ll definitely kill myself rather than be a part of it.
And to be honest, I’m leaning toward (3). I feel like evolution sucks. And as much as I love trees and animals and such, I think nature sucks. Like you said, evolution/nature seems to be wired to promote the strong while disposing of the weak. Sure, that makes sense from an efficiency point of view, but morally it reeks to high hell. Of course I admit that nature is not “moral” by any stretch of the imagination. Morality was invented by humans. But I can’t shake the feeling that an amoral/selfish world is pointless and disgusting.
I hate the fact that things like benevolence, compassion, caring, sympathy and self-sacrifice are evolutionary weaknesses. Meanwhile things like brutality, hostility, apathy and selfishness are rewarded by nature. The caveman who rapes the most cavewomen is the one who is rewarded with a zillion offspring and a smile on his face. Nice plan.
So yeah, back to your post, there are times when I do think suicide is nature’s way of paring the herd, getting rid of the weak, the (mentally) damaged, the benevolent & sensitive souls. And thus the assholes are left because assholes know how to survive the best.
If you’ve ever seen the first part of “2001: A Space Odyssey”, that basically sums it up. Humans evolved into the dominant species simply because we were the first species to perfect the art of killing. So if you’re not prepared to be a brute, then evolution doesn’t have any need for you.
I mostly agree with your post. When I was young I was taught to be always nice and caring and foolishly believed all of it. I was disappointed when I actually followed my teachings. I acted nicely and patiently waited for others to act nicely to me too. But that’s futile. In my understanding, instinct is the first factor, which means firstly a human should have to know how to fight and protect himself. Morality is something human, a highly intelligent species, invent to control and make the most out of the struggling process of evolution. There are places for benevolence and sympathy but you will have to be very good at them to make people feel completely safe around you, and well that’s not me. I’m more harmless than I’m good.
There are much conflicts in the world. Those can be settled with peaceful solutions. But the ultimate solution is war because war will always end up with a solution. I don’t think nature has changed too much. It seems to me that morality gets higher. We have fewer wars, governments provide basic needs for everyone. That comes with more regulated morality. The economy is fine tuned for dictating your level of morality. If you work on a bank, by all means please don’t tell customers when the market collapses. You need money first then you do the charity work for your potential customers.
I’m unprepared. I’m selfish. Maybe I’m a bit idealistic, so I actually don’t want to be a part of the world that is crude. But I don’t derive pleasure form revenge either. That’s why I try to make my destruction somehow positive. That’s how I see it.
Yup. Things look pretty bleak as far as evolution goes. It seems to be producing (and favoring) a highly intelligent, resourceful monster known as the human. BUT! Here’s one thing we have to remember: we are still in the infancy of life. It’s entirely possible that the ideal living creature, the goal of evolution, is a creature that possesses strength & violence while knowing how to govern these instincts with benevolence.
For example, the earliest dogs were wolves. Savage, hostile, selfish. But now look at the domesticated dog: loyal, loving & protective, even though it still has the ability to rip your throat out and steal your dinner off the table.
I would love to see the human race start moving in that direction, and I think there is some evidence of that. A whale washes up on the beach, and communities band together to rescue the whale. It doesn’t benefit us in any way. And yet, every human seems to have that instinct to help another being in distress. Hell, this website is another great example. We’re all here because we have some weird instinct to band together and help each other.
When I look at human traits like that, compared to the caveman raping cavewomen, I realize that we’ve come a long way in our moral progress. And although I am violently opposed to half the things our governments are responsible for, I have to admit the government (which itself is simply a reflection of society) does a few good things. A few.
There is in nature a phenomenon called ‘symbiosis’ where differing species live together for their mutual benefit. Plants produce oxygen for animal life, and animal life produces carbon dioxide for plants. So as much as I hate the cold, competitive nature of evolution, I have to admit that evolution seems to be telling us that we can’t just steal, kill & rape our way to perfection.
I dunno, I wish I could see into the future a million years, just a glimpse. Just to be reassured that all this is going somewhere. If it is, as insignificant and painful as my life is, I’ll be happy to contribute to the process.
So back to what you just said, I don’t think it’s foolish to be nice & caring. I also don’t think you were that way simply because you were taught. I think it’s an instinct we all have. It’s a very weak instinct, and it definitely doesn’t seem to serve much good as far as survival. But the earth is still young. You & I & everyone here have the misfortune of being born into a very cruel time. But maybe this is the time to fight like hell so we can ensure a better future. A million years from now.
First off I’d just like to say… has it actually gotten to the point where someone in Vietnam feels like it’s necessary to explain what/where Vietnam is? For the sake of my sanity and geography in general, I hope it’s not. Even if someone couldn’t point to it specifically on a map, hopefully they at least know the vicinity of it.
But with that aside, interesting stuff here. I don’t think things like compassion and kindness are always weak in an evolutionary sense. I think they have their place, and coexist along with the brutality. Not saying they can’t be detrimental, but everything has the potential for that, including hostility. You could argue that kindness and sympathy are more often detrimental than hostility and direct selfishness, and you may be right.
As far as the whale washing up on the beach scenario, I would actually disagree that it doesn’t benefit us in any way to rescue it. It may not directly or even consciously benefit us, but I think that it makes certain people, the types of people to actually be in a “save the whales” type group, feel good about themselves, whether consciously or unconsciously, and allows them to think of themselves as “good” people. I think this is, again, whether consciously or unconsciously, the driving force behind those types of acts.
I believe it’s all about what feeds each individuals ego. How each persons taste for what makes them feel good about themselves or satisfies them develops, I don’t know, but I would assume it happens in much the same way as sexuality and similar things develop. For some people, bringing others down and being hostile and dominant is what feeds their ego best, for others it’s being helpful and kind. There may be a way to eventually engineer society and humanity itself more towards the latter side of things, and in some ways I think that is already happening. But who knows.
Ah, I guess I use over harsh words in my post. Yes, I agree that humanity came a long way, and the world is a better place than it used to be. When I said foolish, it just means about me. I said we have to be good at it, be real at it. I did what I did with no understanding, no real objective. When the teacher distributed food for lunch, everyone pushed the line, and I just stayed out of it expecting nevertheless someone would give me food. That’s what I call foolish. I thought I did good things and wondered why people were bad. If I was really good, I had to know the reasons and worked to change it. I could persuade them, teach them moral lessons or take my food and then help people take theirs. That’s what I mean.
What I have problems with is that I feel like people’s kindness is sometimes predictable. I mean that people are more intelligent and have more experience in what to do and what to feel. Here, society does not take suicide seriously. Because society thinks so, everyone starts to follow. Or another example, when I was sick, I told my dad I was sick so I wasn’t going to play with the family that day. He would first scold me for being useless (couldn’t take care of myself) then he would help me by giving me medicine. It made me wonder if he did that because he was a robot while I certainly did not need his help (already took the medicine). But maybe it’s a normal thing in here.
I am sure the world will change, though now I am unsure whether I’m good or bad and whether I have the will to fight. But best of luck.
Saving the whale is definitively a good thing in my book, whether it’s pure kindness or it’s just for show. It’s show that human is kind/ knows how to do appropriate things when the situation calls for. I’m thinking about the prisoner’s dilemma, where if you play more than one round then defecting may not be the automatic choice. Everything has pros and cons, that’s much certain.
And about Vietnam, I just want to point out because when I went to France many people mistook that I’m Chinese and the Chinese asked me where is my country, so I said I lived near China.
Although I should point out that I don’t necessarily think that is the only driving force behind kind acts. I think nature has designed us with a decent amount of intrinsic sympathy as well, and many of these acts stem, at least for the most part, from that sympathy.
What an interesting and balanced conversation. I have a tendency to think along the same lines as Salt when it comes to the motivation to live or choose to die.
Regarding evolution, specifically, dogs, I think this is a good example of a more advanced species (humans) working to deliberately change what nature created. A modern day comparison might be the disastrous attempts by fundamentalists to change someone’s orientation through repairative therapy. The difference being, one species is trying to dramatically change something in its own species.
I don’t see compassion as weakness. I see it as exploited and demeaned by those whose greed and desire for dominance is out of control. People ask “Why would you do that (kind, compassionate act)? What to do you expect to get in return?”
And there lies the rub. Our current, sick society is incapable of seeing and understanding that the truly compassionate and caring person receives an emotional benefit that can actually heal the physical and feed the soul. To some people, that’s as ridiculous as believing in the Easter Bunny.
So when those who have gone to the well for the gazillionth time, offering their compassion and kindness, only to get knocked down and beaten up yet again…..well eventually, the well is bone dry. And that’s when suicide becomes a viable option. The Compassionate one receives no benefit, no nurture, no sustenance. Suicide is then a natural way of culling the herd.
This treatment/abuse can, and does, cause isolation, loneliness and robs the mind and heart of the desire to try and hold on, to hold out for the chance to be useful and contribute to the common good. Constant rejection and neglect end up bringing a death once called a failure to thrive. Others take matters into their own hands by choosing to die rather than suffer the pain any longer.
I wonder how many or which of us on this site are approaching death by either of these manners? I have often said I will simply stop taking the medications that keep my heart working. I still think that’s the way I will eventually die. Even when I’m having good days, weeks, months, I think of death every single day. Because I don’t understand why I HAVE to be here. What purpose am I filling and what benefit does my living provide to others? If only I could find the answer to that question, perhaps I could make an intelligent decision.