… and it’s true.
I was just told this by my GF after she ran through the checklist of all my failures and shortcomings. As if I was completely unaware and aloof of how utterly fucked I am and have been for the last few years. Now, I’m sure she means to somehow motivate me or in some other way try to light a fire under my ass to somehow ferret my way to at least a treading water type of existence in some clever way – she’d be ecstatic if I could manage that.
What’s funny (ironic/weird type funny … and in a twisted way funny ha ha funny 😛 ) is, I was working all day and just pondering how despite the fact that I have no imminent issues/concerns that put my back up against the wall – even compared to the times I was between a rock and a hard place – I didn’t want to exit quite to the degree that I do now … and that was my thought BEFORE she unwittingly vocalized the mental checklist of catastrophic failures and under achievements that has become my life that I’ve been pondering for the last couple weeks.
Somehow, I don’t think she and I are on the same page regarding “Sometimes YOU have to BE the “change”” … and it breaks my heart because, of course I don’t want to hurt anyone … but as many of you are keenly aware … that is practically unavoidable.
Trade offs
Balance
Pros and cons
Blah
Edit to add:
In other words – my idea of “change” is somewhat “different” from what I’m sure she has in mind (as in: become a better …whatever …)
contemplative dawg
26 comments
Sounds like she hasn’t been in the place you are (and have been for a while). That isn’t a bad thing tho, another perspective is needed at times, specially when we are oblivious to certain things (be it by depression or just not noticing).
In a way you are lucky that you kind of get a wake up call. Usually my wake up call (when i still dated) was “we are done” and there was no turning back, lol. Good luck with that contemplation, we could all benefit from doing that more often.
Thanks for the response – I know at times I can be verbose and nebulous … I’ve been hard considering THE FINAL EXIT, catching the bus, etc. lately … lots of reasons … her NOT being one of them … I just found her choice of words ironic and the fact that she ran through the list of things I’ve had banging around my head (and many more not listed) to be bizarrely prophetic.
I’m reminded of that scene from the “Princess Bride” – I’ll add the meme to the post 🙂
drama dawg
Haha good meme. For a minute i thought you meant “Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die!”… and that would have been something to worry about.
Yes – yes it would 😛 – actually it’d be downright disturbing. One thing I have never considered – and I implore anyone considering an exit – in if you choose to take out your self, that’s fine, I can respect that. But don’t tarnish your legacy by harming ANYONE (outside of yourself) period.
jovial dawg
The rare, elusive Dawg post appears on SP every few months, or even less, as always probing the depths of our understanding of life & recovery. And regardless of subject matter, I think they signal a sort of “terror alert orange” with the Dawg. And that really freaks me out.
Well, as for her definition of “change”, yeah I guess like you said, you have to see her intent, not her actual words (which I agree, are an ironically good argument in FAVOR of “changing” your current status of being alive). Also, the whole thing about taking inventory of your failures, that’s sorta sucky too, but I’m sure her intent was good. Still, maybe you could tell her it would be a better approach to run thru a list of your victories and tell you that the same person who won all those battles is still alive & breathing, if he so chooses.
It’s funny, I was just thinking about relationships and how we instinctively look for certain opposite qualities in partners/friends/etc. And I actually thought about you, Dawg, and the post you made a while back about how you’ve got a great girl, but often her approach is at odds with yours, or what’s even good for you.
My conclusion is this. None of us has the right answer. So, almost like seeking out the devil’s advocate, we look for others who can present the opposite. Sometimes that’s the way to go. Or sometimes it just helps us cement our resolve that it’s NOT the way to go, our way is better. Still sometimes it shows that neither way is right, and we need to keep looking.
I hope the case is #3 (assuming that her approach is basically “tough love” while your approach is basically “RIP”). I can’t even begin to guess what the right solution is, for you or myself, but hey man. The fact that we’re here pondering these things proves that we’re trying, in most cases getting closer.
Well, Dread Pirate Dawg, at the end of each day just keep telling yourself: “Good work, sleep well, I’ll most likely kill myself in the morning.” And like in the movie, the key is, don’t.
” Dread Pirate Dawg, at the end of each day just keep telling yourself: “Good work, sleep well, I’ll most likely kill myself in the morning.” ”
LOL – that’s goddamn brilliant 😀
By all accounts, she is still a great girl. And no, not really opposite or “at odds”. And yes, her intentions were/are good and honorable – she needs help and I’m not carrying my fair share … not for lack of trying or in any way on purpose. When we met – I was on the precipice (privately) and she unknowingly threw me a lifeline. But I made crystal clear what my situation and limitations entailed. As with most of us, our lives/situations ebb and flow … mine ebbs far more than it flows … mostly due to my health and physical limitations. So she still chose to dive in with eyes WIDE open, I was clear on this point, know where I was in my head space.
Fast forward, the ebbs have been ebbing at a greater frequency as of late … so before she ever vocalized her frustration I KNEW I was becoming a burden and a source of frustration and stress … not on purpose or because I, in any way, wanted to. No, there are many chronic issues that are ongoing in my life that consistently create roadblocks and log jams and will continue to do so … things that are either difficult to overcome or that will persist until I no longer exist.
It was a few of these things that brought me here in the first place, long before I met her. If anything, she has stabilized my life and given me security. The problem – that I was already seeing and realizing long BEFORE she saw them, was that these things would eventually begin to drag on her as well … and like the prophetic “genius” that I am, has become a reality which she is just beginning to realize. Sure, there are many good things that we can and have achieved and I am certainly indebted and grateful to her for seeing me for me and not the sum of my situation … but I guess I underestimated the ability for her to appreciate just how perpetual my situation is. I probably should have just caught the bus before shackling her to my anchor chain (me being the anchor).
I knew it was a matter of time, outside forces from ghost long past have a way of not giving up on their quarry. Chronic pain seems to be the heart of it all … pain requires meds, meds require doctors, doctors and meds require money, money requires work … pain LIMITS work, government limits meds, meds increase work but government limits meds thus limiting work thus limiting money … government also wants money for past child support (“kid” is now and adult 20+ yrs old) … I did my level best to pay the outrageous amount that did NOT decrease when my ability to EARN decreased … so it’s not like I was a purposeful “deadbeat” … but that’s neither here nor there, my kid, my responsibility – fair enough … but not all situations are created equal – I struggle to work because I don’t get the meds I need to do so because the government has put caps on the amounts that can be prescribed … the government has done “wonders” to prevent pain meds form getting into the wrong hands … not surprisingly, the collateral damage is, it keeps them equally out of the hands of those that REQUIRE them to maintain anything that resembles a “normal” life.
Do you start seeing the vicious circles that are impossible to break out of? Believe me when I say – some of those “obvious” questions have been considered as solutions but either the window(s) of opportunity were long since closed or they simply never existed … I’ve considered many solutions from several angles and keep seeing nothing but a decent into hell.
My GF – stopped that decent – for that I will forever be grateful – but at the same time it makes me sad because it only delayed the inevitable. Of course I’m going to relish and enjoy every moment I can remain topside and do my level best to refrain from hurting anyone and strive to help others. But I’m on the back nine of life – I’m MUCH closer to the age of retirement than I am to the age of legal drinking 😛 … life … it IS going to end … but I don’t want to dig my hole much deeper and I certainly don’t want my GF to get stuck in my hole. And unfortunately she volunteered to help me dig this hole with the deluded belief that we’d actually, little by little, begin filling it in. Mother of god, did I miscalculate!
I’m rambling now – I should really stop. Suffice it to say, that before she vocalized her observations – which were out of love and with the intent for positive change – I was seriously auditing my situation and was probably much closer to a “change” than I ever have been – about as equal or maybe more so than the time when the clock was ticking on my eviction from my foreclosed home.
I’m not sad or sorry to consider my exit, at least not for me … but I am for her … although I’ve tried to impress just how dire and futile my situation always has been, I don’t think I conveyed it, not without coming right out and saying “I’d be better off dead”. It’s this thought that hurts me. I worry what it will do to her … but if I continue on, I’ll end up in jail for “willfully not paying child support” (I’m about two and a half yrs. “behind” for a “kid” who is over 20 yrs old now) or otherwise dragging her down to a point of potential homelessness and destitution. And that’s not exactly fair either, now, is it?
Sure, I hope something “breaks” in my favor where I can put my exit plan back in the closet and on the back burner. I just don’t see it happening :/
babble dawg
Even if you are prepared to boldly exit stage left with no regrets, I still feel a terrible sense of sadness that it would come to this. With suicide I see it as a failure of the world, not of the person committing suicide. In your case it’s painfully clear. I mean, we living creatures are all alone in this fricking icebox called the universe; we should stick together, NOT push each other to breaking like the system has done to you. And yes, I know the vicious circles you’re talking about, so I’m not going to trivialize the situation by saying “buck up camper, things will get better” or such nonsense like that.
But I do believe that sometimes, if you just hold on a little bit past the breaking point, events will randomly happen that you can exploit in your favor. Or hell, sometimes you just sorta realize something you haven’t tried before. On the subject of meds, there was an SP member, damn I forgot his name but he was one of the old timers from years past, and he once described how growing weed became his reason for living. Not just in a stoner sense, but in the way you’d hear an old Japanese man talking about his herb garden. And the fact that it eased his pain literally made it more poetic.
A change like that is worth hanging on for. It doesn’t fix this mess we call life, but let’s just say it makes life interesting enough to live a little longer. Your GF sounds like choice material. As you already know, it’s tough “breaking someone in” to the world of suicide. She’s still getting her footing. I bet she still thinks she can cure you overnight… a nice delusion (no sarcasm). And at the same time you can’t discount the possibility that if you humor her, well sonovabitch she might actually come up with a cure. Another nice delusion.
So yeah, maybe something will break in your favor. I agree it’s foolish to expect that, but at the same time, keep your eyes peeled for possibilities. And you’ve got a crack team of experts working on the case: all your pals here at SP. Don’t forget that part man!!
Heh – yeah Salt, she is quality stock. But you’re right that “cures” are delusional. Trust me when I say, I’m a firm believer in “holding on” as long as possible and then some – I’ve done so more times than I can count and many times some random event/act DID, in fact, occur to ease pressure or generate a positive result. It’s why I try to impress on the youngin’s here that it’s never over til it’s over. If you’re young enough, there is very little that cannot be overcome with a keen eye, a little patience and a little elbow grease. Life is a constant collection of transformations – what seems never ending and true today, can and will likely be ridiculously false a year from now.
How many stories have we read from past member here who were downright adamant that “nothing will ever change” and that life wasn’t worth another moment only to have then stick it out a few more weeks … or days … or even hours? And they come back a year or two later to say they found love, found family, found fellowship – found something that feeds their soul and that they cannot imagine how they ever came to be in such a dark and distant place? So yeah, I agree that it may seem like a long shot to hold out – but you and both have seen it and I know I have experienced it first hand. So I would not say it’s “foolish” by any stretch.
These stories are why I come back here and try to help when/where I can – I have a wealth of experience and even a bit of knowledge 😉 … and I have the uncanny knack to view things objectively, rationally. So for me, yes, I step outside myself and try to review my situation from an outsider perspective, removing emotion and/or attachment to the outcome. What I see, is me continuing to become and ever increasing burden with little hope of changing direction – I’m a drain on finite resources with limited capacity to replenish those resources despite my conscious effort to minimize my use of said resources.
Of course I’ll not forget my SP brethren – y’all are a large part of the reason I’ve survived to this point – I’ve been coming here for … i think … 4 … going on 5 years now. At one point I was considered sage … king of the proverbial castle … the voice that everyone looked to for sound logical assessment and judgement. My visits here have tapered off … in large part due to my relationship and situation, so many new faces and names and a whole knew way of “doing business” here seems to be the order of the day … I’m a relative old, out of touch windbag who posts insanely looong and boring posts and comments …
There was a time when this level of deep detailed discussion was the rule, not the exception. I’ve been declared dead no less than 4 times here LOL. I can’t be sure that those claims were not prophetic … but then, we’re all “dead men walking” in some fashion or other. I can assure you, if I ever decide to catch the bus, it will be after every last option to generate even the slightest positive improvement … or even the possibilities of merely stopping the negative decent … have been exhausted. I don’t “want” to die … no way – I want to LIVE! But not to be the punching bag of the world – I’ll not suffer for the entertainment of others.
Too many people in this world look at the “snapshot” of a particular moment in time, and like Pontius Pilate, they wash their hands in willful ignorance while they pass judgement, never to be concerned for their consequences of their actions. They’re “just doing their job” … A guy with pain meds, is now, or soon will be a junkie addict and as such a potential danger to society … this, is how they will rationalize it. Behind on child support? DEADBEAT! Should have taken responsibility … never mind that I paid every cent for one kid and at least 3/4 of the total (outlandish) for the other … see, I get no credit or acknowledgement for that … all they see is – deadbeat – and their job is to persecute deadbeats. Doctor KNOWS I’m in pain … but you think he’ll risk his license/practice … nope … and I don’t blame him. It’s easier to turn a blind eye to my suffering than to volunteer to take on a whole world of suffering for himself and risk his family.
So, I don’t know how my story ends yet – and I don’t want it to end – but I’m starting to seriously think a “change in venue” is in order. 😛
FYI – I really appreciate that you and a few others still cling to the “old” SP ways of having deep detailed discussions – it’s really what endeared me to this community. So much more is learned and accomplished, I hope more of the newer visitors consider this approach. I’d really be nice to see the deep camaraderie return to this place.
did I mention I’m old? … and I feel it? 😛
objectively at peace dawg
Hah I don’t know if I ever told you, but 3 years ago when I first hauled my sorry ass onto this site (under a different username which I’ve forgotten from all the damage I did to my brain back then), I believe you were the first person to make an insightful comment that made me really stop and say, “Whoa. This place is really amazing. I think I’ll stick around.”
We’ve definitely lost a lot of members since then, the good way & bad I’m sure, but there are some pretty sharp newcomers, too. The problem is, in order to get into this type of lengthy discussion, there needs to be some sort of familiarity with others, or else you’re not quite sure how it’ll be received. A site like this with a lot of turnover makes that hard. But if you haven’t noticed, I think (due largely to your re-emergence), other old timers are crawling out of the woodwork on occasion. Not sure where that’ll lead, if anywhere, but it’s nice to see.
Back to the subject of being persecuted by the system, which you are more than any living person I’ve met, you mentioned a “change of venue”. I know you meant it in a fatal way, but what would it take to get you out of this country? The hop to Canada isn’t as hard as you think (I did it once but came back because gas is way cheaper here lol), and while I’m sure you’ll encounter “the system” in any country, I feel like it can’t get any worse than the USA with its web of bureaucracies and idiots.
Or here’s a thought that’s kept me afloat in dark times. If things get so bad that you’re literally going to pull the plug on your entire existence, why not grab a toothbrush and a change of skivvies and go somewhere far away. Go to some distant land to die, free of this oppressive atmosphere and this crappy society that didn’t give you a fair shake. Get as far away as your credit cards will take you, and then… well… make your final decision to live or die.
@Salt – yeah, this site is unique and amazing, thanks to people like you and many others 🙂 I hope that some of my contributions have stayed with you – you’re an amazing talent and a genuinely good person that I feel the world would be lesser without.
I concur that the turnover on this site can hamper familiarity and there’s also the fear of discovery since many of the thoughts/reasons people post here are such deep secrets that anonymity is paramount. Fear of discovery/disclosure is a huge obstacle to open dialogue. Many of us would have a very difficult time of trying to explain our thoughts to the real humans in our lives and trying to get understanding? OY VEY! We (here) all know how many of those close to us would lose their freakin minds at the hint of the “S” word and I know more than a few people here have experienced that “good will”, “help” and “understanding” first hand, to know that the LAST thing we want is people being tipped off to what’s REALLY going on in our heads.
This is a large part of the reason for my “hibernation” for a time. My living situation changed in such a way as to limit my privacy. Well, I’ve since been able to “work out” a “schedule” of sorts that allows me the isolation to interact here without inadvertently exposing what I’m doing and thinking.
To your suggestions – they’re good, just not practical for me … nor necessarily desirable … besides, CanuckLand is freakin cold … I’ve been there, I love it there but only if you could raise the average temperature about 30 degrees 😛 . To that idea and the other one – taking a road trip to nowhere – I STILL have the responsibility of my dogs … a responsibility I take very seriously so your suggestions would be impractical … but appreciated, nonetheless 🙂
I can reasonably assure you this, whatever I decide, whenever that is – I’ll post it on this site so there is no mistaking my intention … not that too many folks here would really care one way or the other because they usually avoid my long winded verbose posts and comments like the plague … but I digress 😛 … but for now, I’m not quite there yet – it’s just been creeping back into my mind a lot lately.
stationary seesaw dawg
Ha taking care of dogs… you’re really talkin my language now. There are so many times I’ve wanted to walk out the door and never turn back, but I couldn’t do that to the little furballs. I probably couldn’t even handle it myself.
Total tangent: when I first joined this site, someone posted about how she was going to kill herself (due to intense physical pain that repeated surgeries could not fix) but she couldn’t abandon her 2 dogs. I told her I could find a trusted rescue to take them, and through email I started setting things up. Then I realized that the dogs were her last connection with the living world, and if they left her, she would kill herself within minutes I’m sure. And with that thought I suddenly backtracked because I didn’t want to be responsible for that. So I apologized and said I just couldn’t do it. Never heard from her again, on this site or otherwise. I’d like to think she found some treatment for her pain, and she’s running through poppy meadows with her 2 happy dogs… but I think we can probably guess a more realistic scenario.
Well that was depressing. But my point is that our pets keep us tied to life, for better or worse… I’d say even more so than (human) children, because with human children at least you can try to explain things and prepare them, whereas with animals you leave them forever waiting with their noses at the door thinking you’ll appear any minute, and feeling the crushing disappointment every day when you don’t. I think this is a good thing. Sure, in my most suicidal moments I’ve felt like they’re a burden holding me back from the promised land… but when the fog lifts (which it always does, if but for a short while) I remember that my pooches are not a responsibility, they’re a great privilege. And even though I can’t fly off to Rome at a moment’s notice, my life is sooo much better with them. I hope you feel the same about your furkids. I’m sure you do!
Well damn, I sure went off for a while there, and I never even got to the other interesting stuff you brought up. But I have a pretty severe limit on how many words I can type before my brain starts to sag out my ears, so I’ll cut it short. Thanks so much for the (too) kind things you said. You yourself are a tremendous boost, and to this day I think about the encouraging things you told me on that video I put up. I’m milking that for a lotttta mileage 😀 I hope your seesaw brings you gently down to earth instead of launching you into the sky like that little girl in Young Frankenstein lol.
I can’t properly describe how refreshing it was to read huge blocks of texts again (filled with content that makes sense). I remember it was still that way when i first checked sp, until it eventually turned into some sort of tweet-fb like thing. Not that it’s a bad thing but it’s surely different.
As for meds… meh, i’ve been in meds like crazy for a long time so i guess i’ll chime in. The problem with meds nowadays is that they will most likely fuck your liver up, and that’s true of any drug, even natural ones. The prob? excipients, particularly silicon dioxide (if i remember correctly), and in some cases, badly controlled synthetization processes.
So in the end you get (like you said) a bunch of doctors who don’t want to lose their license because they are realizing most of the drugs they’ve been using will get you sick of multiple other things. If they weren’t measuring your meds you’d most likely have another chronic problem, because of the meds haha. I don’t think cost is really a problem, because the cost of manufacturing existing drugs is often pretty low, the selling price is high because of supply and demand, but the government often gets a whole different deal on those.
And yup, i’ll guess i’ll stop the post here because most likely this is all stuff you already know.
I couldn’t agree more MF. It would simply seem logical that if a person is going to arrive at the extreme and drastic conclusion that life is not worth living and thus they are choosing to end their life at their own hand. One would think the conversation to either validate or reconsider such an act is worthy of more than 140 characters. I’ve seen deeper conversations regarding favorite power rangers or pokemon cards that some efforts put it here over that last couple years.
This isn’t to minimize or marginalize anyone – some people really have difficulties communicating, writing, translating and more … sometimes there really isn’t all that much to say. And these are all fair reasons/rationalizations. It just seems that such a life altering FINAL decision is worth more detailed, in depth discussion. It is, after all, a pretty serious topic of discussion no matter what your stance is.
Regarding meds – The three major points you raise … well … they aren’t major factors in my situation:
Liver damage: Not an issue – and I have to get blood tested at minimum, annually to keep an eye on this “possibility” … in roughly 15 years of using the same medications there has been no hint of a liver issue and for the last 14 yrs it was legal and common to prescribe at a higher dosage … so in my case, the government (DEA, FDA) arbitrarily decided to cut my (everyone’s) dosage 25% merely to facilitate “action” in the “war on drugs” … no other reason applies
Quality: not an issue in the USA – pharmacies get the best from the top manufacturers
Cost: actually this IS an issue for me as I have no health insurance to defray costs, I’m strictly “out of pocket” … this means I pay a higher cost than the negotiated rates insurance companies get per pill AND I don’t get any “discount” on any pricing – that said, I’d pay through the nose to get relief so whether cheap, free or expensive – I’d STILL need them. as an aside regarding supply and demand, I assure you the patients are there for demand and the pharmaceutical companies could crank up the production line any old time they wanted … the supply is purposely kept low to drive up demand/price … it’s a really sick/twisted business model if ya think about it :/
Feel free to ramble on next time – one never know where one might find a nugget of wisdom 🙂
junkie dawg
FYI ^^^ that was what I “thought” would be a “short” response LOL :/
long winded dawg
Interesting post/responses 🙂 thanks for the reading material. I apologize for not being able to contribute anything useful.
Thanks for reading – it doesn’t matter if you have something “useful” or directly relevant – speak your mind openly – as I’ve said before – one never know where one might find a nugget of wisdom 🙂
thankful dawg
@Salt
I’m responding here because i can’t find the nested “reply” button 😛
But yeah – my dogs are huge important – they don’t deserve to have their world turned upside down and yes they are much much more than just a responsibility/obligation – I slightly disagree with you on the point that they aren’t – they ARE but voluntary responsibilities/obligations … an important distinction… but totally agree they are a privilege. When we make the choice to have an animal (dog, cat etc.) we accept that as a contract, a promise to care for and keep safe, that animal for it’s entire natural life to the best of our ability. I loath the way many people toss them aside like trash because they “don’t fit” in their family anymore. our disposable society has made us numb to the lives of the other creatures we share this planet with. It sickens me.
That said, not all situations are created equal – sometimes life throws stuff at us that is unavoidable and that animal would be better served with a family that can make the commitment and has the means to live up to it. But it would need to be an extremely dire situation. When I faced homelessness, I was beginning to put feelers out on how to distribute my dogs to caring, loving homes. Thankfully it was not necessary but in that situation you simply aren’t left with much choice … but I have lived in near slum like conditions/neighborhoods for the sole purpose of fulfilling my commitment to my dog(s). The conditions may not be ideal but at the time they were the best I could come up with and maintain my commitment – me nor the dog seemed to mind 🙂 because we were together and happy and that is what TRULY matters in life – right?
FYI – If I said something – I said it because it is true (to me) so any compliments I extend to you are earned – not fluff or in any way meant as a means of disingenuous flattery. So what I said regarding your talent applies whether you accept it or think it’s too generous or not 😛 … I don’t make such statements lightly or flippantly. And quite frankly – I don’t think I knew you had/have a dog(s) so your stock – in my book – just went up a few notches 🙂
honest dawg
…as is your stock skyrocketing! But I should’ve known it: wisdom always comes with compassion. Maybe compassion isn’t the right word, but a deep appreciation and sensitivity toward non-centered things. Such as lifeforms beyond ourselves or, as the case may be, even beyond our species.
“Our disposable society has made us numb to the lives of the other creatures we share this planet with. It sickens me.”
Man that’s a mouthful. Dawg buddy (hope no one’s listening…) between you & me, THAT’s the reason why I want to off myself. I can handle all the bullshit that’s happening to me, but when you strip away my faith in the human race, of which I am a part, then I don’t see the purpose in living another day. Most people (probably wisely) adopt the “keep your eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel” philosophy of moving forward even though “the future’s uncertain, the end is always near.” In other words, I don’t think many people really stop to ask, “Am I part of a corrupt organization known as the human race? Should I quit the organization, or should I just continue working for da man because he throws me enough bills each week to buy booze?”
And when you start to seriously ask that question, the only responses you get from da man are hollow advertising slogans like “Everything will be ok!” or “Have faith!” or “God has a plan!”
Well, how can I believe in any of those when observation shows me that Homo sapiens is a species that, time & time again for the last million odd years, proves that it has no regard for anything that doesn’t benefit itself. Sure, there have been (and are) great people who fight the corrupt system, but it’s clear that it’s a losing battle. Just when we think we’ve evolved beyond Atilla the Hun, we get Hitler. Just when we think Hitler is ancient history, we get genocidal nutbags in Africa like Mugabe. On and on. And all the while, like you said, society, we (and I’m even pointing the finger at ME) become a little more numb every day. A dictator wipes out countless lives, and I can’t be arsed to care because I’m still shell shocked from the last dictator.
And so again, at the end of the day, I’m stuck on the riddle “what crappy species deserves to die the most” followed of course by “what species am I?”
Punch it all into the Salt-o-puter and the ticker tape spits out: suicide.
Hmm wow, well I sorta went off there again. Foaming at the mouth a little. Just a little. I better go before I start making suicidal people depressed :p
Anyway Dawg, the point is I hear ya. Wish I could say more, but… I hear ya.
What is truly unfortunate is that humanity has as infinite capacity for good as it does evil yet as a species we predominantly choose the latter over the former. This reminds me of a point i often used to make to environmentalists. They get all worked up on save the planet or this or that tree, whale, flower etc. Id tell them your cause is just but your methods doomed to fail. Id tell them “save the earth ” is a futile message that most will never support eapecially since its costly. Id try to get them to see that the only message that will work is “save the people”. Greed and self interest would then get them the support they need. Only if they concince people that they need to take care of the earth to save themselves will they truly care. Sad state of humanity bc we are capable of so much more.
That’s so true, stormfall. Kindness, benevolence & flower power will never work alone because it’s so contrary to human nature (to all of nature). Maybe if we were talking to a race of evolved aliens we could discuss the merits of saving the planet, the whales, the starving children, etc. But to humans, it’ll always be an afterthought at best. The thought that dominates humans is “how does this benefit me?”
As you said, if compassion can be presented in a profitable way, THEN it’ll sell. We’ve already seen bits of it. We don’t use Amazonian rainforest trees to build our houses, simply because it’s way cheaper to use pine from Home Depot. Not because we care about deforestation or depleting the earth’s oxygen or whatever; we (for the most part) don’t deforest the Amazon simply because there’s a cheaper way to live. Same thing can be said for alternative energy. Humans don’t give a crap about using oil & polluting the sky, but damn have you seen gas prices? Better look for a hybrid!
The philosophical question is, even if we get our act together and find a way of coexisting with the rest of the planet without squashing every living thing we see, it’ll always be artificial, won’t it? It’ll always be because we’ve figured out it works best & cheapest, NOT because anyone ever gave a shit about the lifeforms we squashed.
We might even say the same thing about rape & murder & robbery. It’s not like we’re any kinder than our cavemen ancestors who did these things on a daily basis. We just have laws & rules & prisons that dissuade us from raping, murdering & robbing our neighbors. Anarchy shouldn’t be such a terrifying word, but with humans it is. Funny that every other lifeform on the planet exists in a state of anarchy and has done pretty well for 4 billion years. What makes us the lucky exception who sucks?
@Salt – brother, I love you to death … but again, I gotta disagree with you regarding the statement:
“Funny that every other life form on the planet exists in a state of anarchy and has done pretty well for 4 billion years.”
I think, pre humanity, the world as a total ecosystem my have existed in a general state of anarchy. But many MANY species only survive and thrive in cooperative and.or hierarchical societies/communities.
Wolves hunt in packs – cooperatively – lone wolves don’t generally survive long.
Lion Prides have a hierarchy
Bison, Wildebeasts cattle, horses, elephants etc. all run in herds for protection from predators – cooperative for the greater good
Ants, bees … the list is wide and varied
Apes, monkeys, gorillas et. al. – our evolutionary cousins – all have hierarchies and work cooperatively for the greater good to propagate protect and ensure survival of the species.
I have little doubt that if you removed humans from the equation, the world would thrive nicely and maintain it’s own natural balance and seem LESS like “anarchy” that a world with us humans in it.
what “makes” us “lucky”? We evolved to attain self awareness and reason. At the same time we evolved to see agency in patterns and assume the most dangerous possibilities thus avoiding these patterns – See talks by Michael Shermer on youtube – here’s a good concise one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o (it’s about 20 minutes but if you don’t have a lot of time, skip to the 3 minute mark and watch for about two minutes to get the gist)
Type 1 dawg
Haha well actually we’re in total agreement; I think I just explained myself poorly. Nature is in a state of anarchy only as far as there’s no government that animals pay taxes to, no police squad that punishes immorality and definitely no such thing as animal prison by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree that animals do follow patterns of organization, but what’s cool about it is that it’s totally voluntary and without punishment for failure to adhere. If a wolf decides he’d rather hunt alone, no problem. His fellow wolves don’t tell him he’s wrong. With humans, we have gotten so far away from these “natural patterns” and instead we’ve set up artificial authorities (which are, without fail, total bullshit).
And at the same time, while religiously following these artificial authorities (purposeful use of “religiously”), we lose sight of the natural kingdom’s “rules” which were instinctively programmed into us.
So what I’m trying to say is that humans have created such an artificial, mandatory, non-voluntary form of authority, that if it were to be stripped away (anarchy) we would devolve into the worst pack of lunatics. Contrast this against animals and even plants in nature; they have no need for artificial authority because their own individual programming (anarchy in a good sense) is all they need.
Maybe self awareness is the problem like you said. I think we are in the infancy of self-awareness, and so maybe we do need to impose artificial authority on ourselves just because we don’t fully understand what we’re capable of. Example: if you try to explain to a kid not to stick his finger into a light socket by telling him about electrons & voltage, he just won’t get it. So instead you have to make up some BS like “There’s a monster living in the socket!” And that works. It just seems so messed up.
I’ll check out the Shermer video… maybe he proposes a solution, or at least something not quite as bleak as what I wake up to every day.
Oh oops, I forgot to end with the depressing punchline to the whole thing. The punchline is, I think we truly are “the worst pack of lunatics”. Governments and churches and all those artificial things–as corrupt as they are–are the last thing keeping us from spiraling into a total global riot. And that’s what makes me lose faith in humans. Give us freedom, we give you death.
I think the Shermer video will be enlightening – I really think you’ll enjoy it.
But I still gotta disagree – in part – to your hypothesis that animals (other than humans) don’t pay a penalty/price when going against the collective co-op of the tribe/herd/pack – they do – it’s just not arbitrary, like with humans who impose freedom restrictions (jail) or monetary fines etc.
No, Instead, animals pay a price in security/protection or in abundance/availability of food. and animals that choose not to contribute their fair share to the collective will find themselves outcast by the hierarchy or the pack/herd.And in some instances the collective will “punish/attack the offending animal causing severe injury and even death for non-compliance. One doesn’t have to “stretch” very far to see this behavior in the animal kingdom. It’s well documented.
So while I see and understand the vast differences between the human authority structures/laws/governments when compared to those of the animal kingdom, that you’re trying to illuminate. I’m not sure that on a primal level, there is really that much of a difference … at their base, they are both “set up” for the safety, benefit and propagation of the species in question – granting that we humans go WAAAAY overboard when it comes to laws/rules/regulations 😛
I highly doubt you’ll see a zoning board in a troop of monkeys – but if they fail to provide their fair share to the troop and help protect the young and feed/groom others based on their “rank” in the troop – they’ll find themselves “voted off the island” and cast out on their own.
Does it really matter how we “teach” a toddler about a light socket? Back in my day if you messed around with electricity (in a dangerous manner) you didn’t get “taught” or scolded, you were more likely to get smucked in the back of the head and called a “dumb ass”. Which brings to mind a favorite quote from my dad, “If brains were dynamite, you wouldn’t have enough to blow your nose” … try to simultaneously look sorry and serious while not laughing at the hilarity of that statement … laughter would get you an additional smuck upside the head 😛
Key, is that the lesson gets learned and the child survives to propagate and pass on it’s genes … if the lesson is NOT learned, the toddler dies and the family lineage ends. Reasoning and logic can always be taught and understood later from a safe location – our ancestors (early hominids) did not have the luxury or exploring the hows and whys when faced with imminent threats and constant danger. Now we do have that luxury, but with toddlers and small children there is still a need to get them to understand and fully appreciate the potential danger of their behavior, not that it is “correct” but if telling them a monster will get them “works” for the time being … then so be it – it meets the goal of survival.
evolutionary dawg
The rabbit hole goes deeper and wider 🙂
You both raise valid and good points (salt and Stormfall).
One has to wonder if there isn’t a calculation made by those who have overall good intentions to take a step back from the horrific situations created by evil dictators in some regions/countries … I submit for considerations – that as stormfall points out that if humanity wants to survive it must save the planet – YET the planet cannot sustain unchecked population growth … well, how do you make a conscious decision who lives and dies? Enter those evil dictators, they do the dirty work, become the faces of evil incarnate … then when they are close to finished with their evil work – the world then “decides” to send in the cavalry to wipe out the ugly regime only to restart the whole process all over … the good guys look good and the bad guys look bad and the people get their toys to play with in the safety of lands far removed from all the ugliness where they can keep their heads securely nestled in the sand.
It’s an ugly business and no one’s hands are clean. But – there is an aspect of self preservation and local reality that we must face in our day to day lives – as individuals, we didn’t create these situations and although we may tacitly lend our voice/support behind vague and broad concepts that ultimately contribute to these evils – we can never sully get our hands off of them no matter what we choose to support or denounce.
Even if – as Salt thinks, to “check out” … the loss of your voice will tip the balance in the opposite direction of what that voice might have said. So, my friend Salt, I must respectfully disagree with the Salt-o-puter’s conclusion – in this calculation/context.
I think one of the greater issues is that “god” gives humanity carte blanche to do all manner of evils under the guise of “good” and “moral” – it’s probably tie single most heinous bait and switch that has ever been created and sold to our species and humanity bought it hook line and sinker and they’ll continue their domination and destruction of the planet and everything on it until there is quite simply nothing left – then I suppose they must sit down and wait for the rapture … which, of course, will never come. Global Hunger games :/
The great part is, you can never expunge ALL forms of life from the planet unless the planet itself is completely vaporized. So when we tap all the resources we have figured out how to use and we effectively kill ourselves, small life forms will rise and flourish in our absence.
Now, who is rambling? Ole scatterbrained dawg … I’m starting to sound like that old lovable loon Amakua 😛
I think I concur with Stormfall’s assessment that on the whole, we as a species tend – ever so slightly (yet this qualifies as “predominately” ) choose evil over good … but I don’t think if you were to poll individuals you’d find more evil humans – I think you’d find a wide majority of good intentioned people. I think the issue comes in how to attain those well intended goals as Storm points out – How many times do we see good people stoop to evil tactics for the “just” cause? Does that make the good people evil? A counter argument can be made to support the actions of the evil people that they are actually acting for the greater good of their people.
Nothing is merely what it seems on the surface – there comes a point when you just have to throw out all the static that does not directly affect you in your current environment and limit you life path to assessing only the direct local pressures that affect your destiny/future.
This is why I personally don’t include global animal, environmental, political issues to my calculations for my overall outcome/direction – although I certainly lend my voice to many of these issues – they’re just irrelevant to my local condition. It will not really matter to me who becomes president of my country … but the proposed real estate development around the corner from my current residence will have a HUGE impact by wiping out 1500 acres of pristine natural habitat and completely changing the character of this rural community in the name of “progress”.
The balance of humanity is always on a knifes edge … if too many people “get off” one side, the balance tips.
Magellan dawg
Dawg,
I am like you – I can’t believe I actually found a site – where I can relate to what is being said – diagnosed at 49 – three weeks ago…
NewToAut