Yesterday, someone told me that making goals in life was important. I asked him why. He more or less told me that man is meant for progress. I sat and questioned in my head, what is this progress that society in general seems to always pursue.
I do believe that humankind has made leaps in advancement of technology, medicine, and overall the knowledge of the world around us. Do I believe that we as a species have become any more enlightened in spiritual depth? In learning tolerance and understanding among each other, in compassion, in communication (not the methods of communication)? No.
With each era I believe we have broadened our knowledge but not our wisdom, nor have we become any much more spiritually enlightened. In fact, I feel that as more emphasis is put on material wealth and status in our time, than ever before in our history. It’s not that the disparity in wealth distribution didn’t exist before. Now it’s just become easier for people to be cunning in their ways at masking it. Society in general doesn’t seem to focus on the quality of life and human connections; how we measure up to the public eye has become the yardstick to how we measure the quality of our lives.
The hopes that I had for life, myself, were small and perhaps uninspired. All I’ve personally wanted in life was to love and be loved, to be able to better listen, communicate and understand others. I’ve wanted deep, meaningful relationships (and what you make of that, I’ll leave up to you) and to perhaps pursue a living that would help improve the quality of life, not only for myself but for others, if I possibly could. I’d never even thought about being a representative for progressing humankind. All I wanted was to be in the here and now, to make the best of current experience.
When I think myself as a nihilist, I think it’s largely influenced by the fact that I feel alienated from the world around me. I do have ideals, things I put value in, in life. Yet I feel that the world in general makes so light of the things I hold dear, it seems the things I wanted of life have become a mirage – seemingly there, but non-existent. And then I feel that all is lost.
Do I think that making new products is human progress? Technological innovations? Setting new world records? Reaching the ends of the universe? Having individuals accumulate more wealth? Even expressions of creativity at their peak? No. I really don’t. In my own humble mind, the only place where human progress exists is in deepening our humanity. But, what that means, you can make of it what you will. What do I know, after all.
It’s 4 in the morning, and I felt the need to ramble. Excuse me if my thoughts aren’t particularly well formulated. But if any of you can help me out of my disillusionment, please feel free to do so.
93 comments
That is the most sensible thing I read in a long time. I feel exactly the same. I am going to bookmark this page and possibly share it with some of my friends who are not superficial.
Very interesting post… I could only suggest that spiritual growth, empathy, ect is a slow moving machine, maybe only done one heart at a time ….
Well, thanks for reading. I needed to talk out of my ass for a bit.
I don’t agree.
Genetic evolution takes thousands of years. This can be aided with the advancement of technology and medicine.
Social change occurs over a much shorter period. You contend that people have the same sense of morality that they always have. There is evidence to the contrary.
We no longer operate the feudal system and the legal system is a lot fairer now as opposed to exacting retribution on anyone you feel aggrieved with. Not long ago it was perfectly acceptable in a part of the world to build gas chambers and murder millions whereas that is now deemed wrong. There are lots of examples of how people as a whole have learnt from their mistakes and changes have occured in social behaviour.
The world might not be quite as you imagine but thats not to say it’s not moving in a certain direction.
I watched a wildlife documentary once and have just searched for an article on it.
This shows that exposure to an environment or set of circumstances over a period of time will cause a change in the natural makeup of a species.
The bee and the flower both evolved together to their mutual benefit:
“A pink gentian grows in southern Africa, which is pollinated by handsome furry carpenter bees. The flowers of the gentian spread their petals wide, revealing to all a curving white style and three large stamens. Each stamen ends in a long thick anther that seems to be covered in yellow pollen, an obvious temptation to any passing pollen-feeding insect. But that is something of an illusion. The yellow anther is hollow and the pollen is held inside. The only way it can escape is through a tiny hole right at the top of the anther and there is only one way of extracting it. The bee knows how. “It arrives at the flower making a high-pitched buzzing noise with its wings as most bees do. As it alights
on an anther, it continues beating its wings but lowers the frequency so that the note of its buzz
suddenly falls to approximately middle C. This causes the anther to vibrate at just the right frequency needed to release the pollen and the grains spout out of the hole at the top
You seem like a deep thinker. This is one of the most insightful things I’ve ever read. Couldn’t agree more.
Before the past century, the lack of technological advances wouldn’t have made mass genocide possible as it in present day. How can you argue that because the feudal system and previous systems have been overthrown that such systems don’t underlie in the belly of the beast of our current capitalist society. Of course it’s not as blatantly visible. Does that mean the suffering of the weak is any less? No. People slave away in third world countries, just as they would have in feudal times. Instead now it is not on a local scale – it is global. I personally don’t think human morality has changed in any direction. People just adopt different methods and facades to facilitate social and economic segregation. Genocide still exists. To think that the world has become any more equal or tolerant would be a delusion. I don’t mean to be condescending in any way. This is just how I feel about it.
Also, while I agree that social systems change in a shorter period of time, I feel that it is more just oscillation rather than a big divergence from basic human nature. Was the slavery that existed in the world 100 or so years ago that much different from that of a thousand years ago? I don’t really think so. How about inequality for women? I thought being gay was more acceptable in certain time periods in other places in the world, more than it is now? I feel that we as human beings flail around, constantly constructing new frameworks for ‘morality’, but the reality of it is – we haven’t changed that much as a species.
“I feel that we as human beings flail around, constantly constructing new frameworks for ‘morality’, but the reality of it is – we haven’t changed that much as a species.” reminds me of Nietzsche.
Human nature will never change. There’s no point in over-analyzing the fact that we are and behave just like any other animal. Always have, always will. As long as the hunger for power and sex are the two main forces that motivate humans’ intentions and actions, there will be no difference between men and any given community of lions. This reality can be sugar-coated underneath many masks and false speeches, but in the end, the “spirit” will forever surrender to the weaknesses of the flesh, to the selfishness of the being and to the desire to be on top of a yet another food chain society.
jjgirl13 if humans have not “become more equal and tolerant” i suppose that means you would be perfectly fine in living as a pagan-homosexual-african american-anarchist-female in the dark ages; is this an accurate corollary?
Swan, very well put as always. I seriously think you should consider becoming a college professor. No joke. It’d be a waste to keep that mind of yours hidden away. Consider taking some classes on the side and going to school, once you move back. Really. My mom’s 68 and going to school, so don’t tell me it’s a matter of age.
Btw Duke, I always appreciate what you have to say. Your replies are always thought out. I just disagree with you on this one.
Hell, what I posted has nothing to do with wanting to kill myself. I want to do that because of myself, not society. I just couldn’t help but wonder when the guy I was with starting throwing around ‘human progress’ in the air, during our conversation. (Honestly that guy couldn’t even hold a conversation like you guys.)
Over the past several hundred years we have moved forward through dialectic and evolutionary series of natural occurrences. There has been a shift away from feudalism to capitalism. There have been several social movements such as women’s suffrage and civil rights. Economic and scientific influences have helped to form the modern world.
The difference between right and wrong is determined by what is deemed socially acceptable by those that people elect to make that decision. Other countries operate a different system. Injustice may never be eradicated completely and there are undoubtedly some parts of the world where freedom is controlled by the elite but on the whole, the world is a different place than it was a hundred years ago. Those that ‘slave away in third world countries’ do so because their natural environment, because they are from less economically developed countries.
If an individual decides to break the rules then you can’t hold all other people in that social class responsible. The basis human emotions such as greed, envy, hatred etc are fundamental to our survival. You talk as if you aren’t a part of society that you have not contributed. We all contribute. You like your cheap electrical goods. Would you really live without your computer knowing that it was made using exploited labour? What about the fruit that you eat, where do you think that comes from? When slurping your latte do you consider whether it was made using fair trade beans? No of course not.
There is still crime, injustice and exploitation but such things are viewed less tolerably in the wider world than they were. This is being curtailed by the increased access to higher education, the improvement in the standard of living people have in developing countries and the freedoms we now enjoy. There is overwhelming evidence that we have moved forward as a species.
Scar, if I were not all of those things, but just one. Maybe just black, a hundred years ago, would my have been any better than having lived in the Dark Ages? I’m sorry, but I think that comment is really stupid.
You don’t think people still get murdered for ‘honor crimes’ or for being born female in this day and age? That having a different belief than your neighbor won’t get you shot to death? That intolerant bigots won’t tell you whether your morality and religion is right or wrong? That child labor and human trafficking and sexual predation are any less common? Have you watched the news at all, on any day of the week?
jjgirl You haven’t provided any argument to support your assertion that things have not improved. No one has ever argued that bad things don’t happen.
@Scar, you almost had a point there, in my opinion. But then again, would you say that a poor, uneducated, unattractive, “wrong religioned” man from a minority ethnical descent, lives perfectly fine in the States?
@Black Swan Again, that is just a straw man. No one is arguing that bad things don’t happen, but what jjgirl13 has explicitly stated is that “To think that the world has become any more equal or tolerant would be a delusion.”
Which dialectic and evolutionary series of natural occurrences are you referring to? I’m not really sure I follow. Honestly I don’t think feudalism differs much from the reality of what capitalism has become. The masses feed corporations, instead of warlords. You quote social movements in the past one hundred years – that’s a very brief time to think that humankind has made such a great leap. Even in Korea, before Confucianism came, women and men were more equal. In that progression of time, with the arrival of Confucianism, women were treated as being to subservient to men. And now it’s coming back around. Even equality oscillates. Same with slavery.
When you say that people only ‘slave away’ because of economic conditions and environment – as long as someone will be the farmer and another the banker – there will never be equality between the two. Look how Communism turned out. Would have been an ideal society if the idea of ‘everyone puts in the same effort and reaps the same amount’, was realized, no? Instead it turned into something ugly, and even the movement to counter that beast became ugly. Like McCarthyism.
I wasn’t quoting an individual about breaking the rules. I wasn’t talking about a single tree. I was talking about what I see when I look at the forest. And I’ve never talked as if I am not part of society. Yes, I do feel that the overall impression I get from society is that we are not heading towards anything anymore positive than people might have hoped for hundreds of years ago.
What do you know of whether I pay attention to fair-trade or not? That’s a big assumption to make. Of whether I try to keep my environmental footprint to a minimum? No, I don’t watch for fair trade labels for lattes I don’t drink. In fact, even when I buy a soda often I try not to even use a straw because I feel the plastic is wasteful. Does that mean I am perfect in my ways? Obviously I’m not. And I never claimed to be. At least I’m not in denial, and I don’t romanticize humanity for the sake of giving myself the illusion that ‘we as men, are better than the men who came before us’. What hogwash.
Crime, injustice, and exploitation probably were just as less tolerable to many people in previous decades, previous centuries. How are we any better as a species now, when we are more aware than ever of the atrocities around us due to the technological advances in communication that enable us to keep up with what’s going on with the world? As we read about them nonchalantly eating our eggs and toast at breakfast?
The standard of living in ‘developed’ countries, or wherever the ‘developed’ social status exists, will always be better than the rest that fall behind. Education has always been available to the well-off. As I said, I believe knowledge and wisdom are two different things. There is nothing new with the world.
I never denied being an animal.
Scar, because it is a delusion. How have I not provided evidence to support my argument? Are you even reading what I wrote?
So the support for your argument would be:
Yeah, the world is getting better, just bad things still happen?
It’s like saying, ‘bullying is not the problem it used to be. but people still get bullied. bad things happen.’
The support to my argument is simple: the world hasn’t gotten any more tolerant or equal. Just read a few articles about world news. There’s proof right there. Along the lines of what you said. I didn’t say good things don’t happen. I just don’t believe that we are making progress as a species. Sure, we like to say that we are making progress because humans have the inherent need to have a purpose to live.
@Scar, I won’t take sides with ANY government or religion in what I am about to say. I will do it simply to describe how humankind’s intolerance as a whole, didn’t stop at the “inquisition”. Hitler’s holocaust is fairy recent, in relation to the time that humans have been on this earth as a species. No equality or tolerance there whatsoever. Then the cold war came… How many people weren’t “crucified” for being a “communist”? Now, we have the Taliban movement against the western culture… many silent victims of that war on top of the deaths that do get reported. It’s the pull of human nature that makes it impossible for humankind to change. Throughout history the same conflicts repeat themselves under different names. This is not just “bad things happen” it’s a tendency that will never end.
Are ancestors were called Homo Erectus. What with the name.? CHARLES DARWIN suggested that our ancestors first stood upright to free their hands for toolmaking. We now know that cannot be right since the oldest tools yet discovered are a mere 2.6 million years old, whereas the anatomy of hominin fossils reveals that bipedalism emerged at least 4.2 million – and possibly even 6 million – years ago. homo erectus homo erectus homo erectus homo erectus. So what’s with name. Are anscestors’s homo eretus.?
The main distinguishing features between Homo habilis and erectus included the increased brain size, the present of brow ridges, a shortened face, and the projecting nasal aperture. The structure of the nose allows for the condensation of moisture from exhales air. This would be beneficial in a species that pursued an active subsistence strategy in warm and arid habitats.
In the cervical and thoracic vertebrae, the hole through which the spinal cord runs is significantly smaller than modern man-indicating a smaller demand for nerve signal traffic. The spines on all the vertebrae are longer and do not point as far back as modern human. The thighbone is unusual in that the femoral neck is long while the femoral head, which is part of the ball, and socket joint with the pelvis is large. This combination is something of a mix between modern human and australopithecine anatomy.
Modern human have a short femoral neck attached to a large head, while in australopithecines the neck is long and the head is small. The pelvis indicates that the birth canal was smaller than man, which implies that Homo erectus mother would have needed to continue fetal growth rate after birth. More extensive child care was inevitable due to a second altricial condition that the neonatal brain size will tripe in size compared with doubling in size of the ape. Tooth pattern created shift to modern human life history pattern. In apes, first molar eruption occurs over 3 years of age and 40 years lifespan. Humans are 5.9 years and 66 years
And Scar, whereas I am elaborating and actually trying to address points that are brought up, I’d like you to jump in the discussion as well, rather than sit on the sidelines and criticize. If I haven’t made it clear by now, my rhetorical questions:
You don’t think people still get murdered for ‘honor crimes’ or for being born female in this day and age? That having a different belief than your neighbor won’t get you shot to death? That intolerant bigots won’t tell you whether your morality and religion is right or wrong? That child labor and human trafficking and sexual predation are any less common? Have you watched the news at all, on any day of the week?
were part of the evidence I was providing. I apologize if I didn’t make that clear enough.
Oh, and I’m also not saying that individuals, or groups of people will not make an attempt to improve the world. People have in the past, they do now, and they will do so in the future. Does that mean I don’t think we are on a treadmill? Unfortunately, I do. Does that mean I think it’s pointless for people to run? No. The way I see it, the merit is in the ‘present, the here and now.’ It has nothing to do with progress, or the future. If it’s our nature to run, then so be it. We should live to relish the feeling of running.
Our ancestors first stood upright to free their hands Dawin sayin we did this for tool making. We now know that cannot be right since the oldest tools yet discovered are a mere 2.6 million years old So why did Homo Erectus stand up for.?
Again jjgirl13 and Black Swan you’re both missing the point. What you’re doing is creating a “straw man argument” I have not once suggested that horrible things do not still happen, i have watched with my own eyes people burned alive and murdered for pleasure. Those are thoughts that will never leave me; i’m well aware of the bad things that happen in this world, but that IS NOT what i’m talking about.
jjgirl13 you have explicitly stated that the world has not become any more equal or tolerant. If you’re to maintain this then the onus is on you to provide evidence that at present,the world contains just as much suffering as it ever has.
The only defence you’ve given is that bad things still happen. Let’s imagine for a moment that there are 10 people starving to death. Some kind people come and give 6 of them something to eat. According to your reasoning nothing has changed because 4 of them are still starving, therefore nothing has improved. This doesn’t make any sense.
@Black Swan of course it’s a tendancy that will never end, but i’ve never said anything to the contrary.
I’m only trying to address what i see as being the assertion that nothing is better now than it ever has been.
I Want to know.When and Why did are Our ancestors first stood upright.?
@Jjgirl, I completely agree with each and every word you have stated. Very well written, argued and documented. I have very little to add to it, really.
@Duke, all you did was reaffirm our theories with your statements. I didn’t see any evidence whatsoever that pointed to any evolution of mankind as a species.
@Donnie, Homo Erurectus stood up so he could be the first to rise above others and lead. Lol.
Was it to eat aapple from the tree of knowledge.?
You’re trying to make a moot argument, Scar.
Where’s the proof that the world is a better place?
I am not God and will never have a flow chart and graphic that lays out the +/-s of humankind. I stated from the beginning of this post that this is my perspective, and as with any statement anybody makes, it will be an opinion.
When the question comes to is the glass half-full, or half-empty, there will be arguments to support both sides and discredit them at the same time.
There’s no merit in arguing vs me. You can proceed to tell me why you don’t think human progress is not an illusion, or you can agree that it is. Or have no opinion at all. There’s no point is saying, ‘prove it’s not an illusion,’ when you’re not even arguing for the opposite.
All you’re demanding of me is to prove that the glass is not half-full.
The assertion is from my perspective. Just as you have your perspective that me calling ‘human progress’ a delusion, is wrong.
Of course we have evolved. At one point people found it difficult to comprehend the wheel before the Romans and who could forget the mesopotamians, without them we wouldn’t have beer, the nectar of the gods. The greatest invention in history is printing, without which we wouldn’t be able to transfer knowledge. Know that we are using our brains more with the use of technology it is highly likely that humans function more efficiently than they did in the past.
You can’t cherry pick examples of suffering. In the UK the state looks after people that are a burden on society because there is a system in place based on fairness. We could allow people to become homeless and starve to death but we don’t because it’s widely accepted that maintaining an adequate standard of living for all benefits society as a whole. People here get free medical treatment. What right do they have to complain about the corporations that charge the taxpayer for the drugs that keep them alive, the food they eat the roof over their heads.
@Donnie, Hahaha good point. I bet you anything it was cause knowledge bring powers and in the end we all want to be Gods.
@Scar, you say “that’s NOT what I am talking about”. Can you please explain to me what is it that you’re talking about then? Where exactly it is that you disagree?
We now have fire. And are we happy.?
The differences is that yours’ is the more radical view. If someone claims that santa clause exists the burden of proof isn’t on those who believe he does not to prove it’s true. Every year death rates go down and estimated life expectacies go up. In the 4th century BC ELE’s were about 30-40 years old; in japan today the ELE is in excess of 80. Today we have government aid, superior medical services, superior judicial systems and law enforcement.
After reading this i assume you’ll continue to tell me about all of the bad things happening nowadays, which will again present a straw man argument, because i’m not arguing against those things. After enumerating a few of the advantages that we have today i will ask you this, would you rather live in the dark ages or now? If your answer is anything except “it’s of no consequence either way” then you concede my point.
Instead of giving me a list of ways that the world is bad(which i’m not arguing against) i ask that you answer the above question.
Sorry, it’s taking me a bit of time to read all the replies and try to process them.
Scar, this is what you said:
The only defence you’ve given is that bad things still happen. Let’s imagine for a moment that there are 10 people starving to death. Some kind people come and give 6 of them something to eat. According to your reasoning nothing has changed because 4 of them are still starving, therefore nothing has improved. This doesn’t make any sense.
I think you’re missing the point. I’m saying is 6 people get fed today, but tomorrow everyone gets fed, then the next day no one gets fed, and the next day 3 people get fed, then the next day 8 people get fed… I don’t see any progression there. That is what I see in human history. Today is just another day. We might get fed a little more, a little less.
Donnie, it took me a while to read what you wrote. I am not sure if I have an answer to your question. I haven’t researched enough to know if being a biped is an evolutionary advantage to being on all fours. Shame on me, I’m an anthro major.
Perhaps we decided the view looking upwards was better than the one facing the ground all the time.
I think that we are acctulay living someone elses dream/nightmare
And when were awake there asleeep and when were asleep there awake.
@Black Swan Haha i have put it as clearly as i could in every comment. What jjgirl13 has said is that life is no better off now then it ever has been. If that’s true then i ask you and her aswell one simple question. Would you rather live now or in the dark ages? If you answer now then you concede that things are better, which contradicts what jjgirl13 has been saying.
@jjgirl What evidence do you have to support this though? Are you saying that some days of the week 7 billion people go starving or die? The majority of people in the world live in societies that are making progress towards healthier and more open minded enviroments. Granted 1 billion people go hungry every day and that’s unnacetable, but what you’re saying is that NO progress has been made at all.
I dislike society more than anyone, but i could never say that people aren’t able to live more happily than they could hundreds of years ago.
Both Scar and Duke are focusing on medical and technological advances. Things that I clearly pointed out as entirely irrelevant to my statement in the VERY first post. I wonder if you even read what I wrote.
Duke, because you possibly live surrounded by those with the better side of life doesn’t make progress universal.
And my view is only the more radical because people want to surround with themselves with positive affirmations regarding life. I hadn’t stated humans were progressing or regressing. I said I don’t think they are progressing. The thing I don’t understand is why you are criticizing my point of view without even stating your own.
@Duke, I have NEVER controverted the fact that human’s intellect and technology have advanced, what I have sustained throughout my comments is that there hasn’t been the slightest change in HUMAN NATURE. That men have always put their own selfish interests and ambitions before any “noble” cause that will benefit the species as a whole including protecting the the well-being of this planet. There hasn’t been any evolution of that kind at ALL and as long as this remains unchanged the same synthoms will keep reappearing under a different name.
There are ways in which the “less favored” are now paying for the health care that the government supplies, cause thanks to the ambition of the healthy ruling class that the same government feeds, the economy has gone to pieces and there are NO jobs out there for them. I’d rather be able to have a job and pay for my own medical care than being left hungry and degraded with the excuse of hospital access.
Are we better socially off now then back in the day.?
Okay, well so that all sides don’t continue knocking down straw men why don’t you say exacty what you mean by progress. Progress as in society advancing, progress as in human evolution etc. What exactly do you mean?
I am sorry but you are awfully dense. Please read everything I wrote before replying.
Your urging for us to choose or or the other between the dark ages and now is ridiculous, and irrelevant.
If I say, this burrito A tastes the same as the burrito B we had yesterday. And you argue, well choose between the burrito A we had yesterday and the burrito B we have today, if I choose today’s you automatically would assume today’s is better, if I truly chose yesterday’s you would probably write me off as being facetious or lying, and if I chose neither then you are saying my preference is moot.
And the ridiculous part is I’m not even arguing whether burrito A or B is better or worse. I’m just saying it tastes the same to me.
Are you analyzing your own logic?
Did I say 7 billion people are going to starve or die? People starved yesterday, people starved today. People starved thousands of years ago. People will starve tomorrow. Is all I’m saying. Jesus. (And yes, I am speaking metaphorically.)
Are you suggesting with every millennium, every century, every decade, humans have been able to live more happily than their ancestors?
Because at this rate, we’ll have depleted the Earth of its resources by the time this supposed human progress reaches its summit.
Scar. Read my first post. I stated it quite clearly. Thanks.
Well, it seems you’re getting angry and resorting to ad hominem. I’m sorry that the dicussion turned out to be without merit. Have a nice day. 🙂
And Donnie, that was part of what I was wondering when I started my rambling. Who the fuck cares about ‘knowledge and advancement’ if we squander away our humanity.
I’m not even going to go into what I think is humanity. I already posted at the very beginning, make of humanity what you will.
@Scar, I will answer your question with complete sincerity if you tell me what rank I would be occupying in society in each case.
You say there’s better medical care and law enforcement but the nucleus of society is being destroyed. There are no families anymore. People are surrendering to the pressure of having to accumulate goods and are forgetting about how important to have unity in their families. What is it to be expected of those children that come home to a microwave oven dinner and a Jerry Springer show?
I am not talking about any advanced of since at all! AGAIN why do you keep mistaken this is the argument.
I will ask you all in just one question: Did you see the movie Avatar? Would you say that humans were more “advanced” as a specie than the natives of Pandora??? If you understand the kind of “evolution” I am talking about with this example, I think I’ll be pretty much done with the discussion.
Scar, that’s because at least half of what you replied totally ignored my initial post. In fact, you just questioned what I meant by progress.
Whereas my entire initial post was me talking about what I felt should be the focus of human progress.
I think it’s reasonable for me to get pissed to spend all this time responding to realize that you haven’t even paid attention to where this argument stemmed from.
No g8 industrialized with go to war. We got the technology to blow up citys. Good thing. Woman from all country’s need birth control. To many people be in born in poverty that’s down to religion. And they all way’s be religion. So people we do what we do with or with out technology. I think.?
Sorry, I didn’t and don’t know what “spiritual englightenment” is.
@Black Swan This is ironic.
@Scar, and Jjgirl, I hope this discussion isn’t taken as a form of fight. I am just really passionate about my beliefs and things and general but never mean to offend or get into bad terms with people.
@Donnie, I think the reason why our ancestors became “homo herectus” is because many forests disappeared and they no longer could move swinging from tree to tree. They had to walk long distances and adjust their posture to be able to see what awaited for them ahead.
@Scar, what is ironic?
Swan you prob right. We had to evolve to find food or die.
I knew exactly what your were saying from the beginning and I believe that genetically we are different to the people that roamed the earth thousands of years ago. The way we think, the way we behave and our characteristics. I don’t believe that they would be able to compete in today’s world even if equipped with the same training.
Man. I feel exhausted. Arguing a moot point.
Look, I’ll wrap up my perspective by simply saying this.
I think people, including myself, should try to care for each other. To LISTEN and read, and try to understand what others say. To be compassionate and caring to the best extent we can. Do I think the world is going to shit? Do I think the world is becoming a better place? Not necessarily either. But I do feel that overall, as a society (not just me, or you, or some other person – all of us, yes, including me) are not as concerned with what I see as things being core to what makes us human. Even if we are animals. Do I believe that the current ‘progress’ we are hurling ourselves towards is making us better individuals, a ‘higher’ species? No.
What I wanted to say mainly, was that we as individuals as well as a collective society should reconsider and be introspective about what the nature of our current ‘progress’ is. The numerous advancements that humankind boasts do not impress me, largely. Even on the tiniest scale, nature is capable of amazing things that we aren’t aware of. As I stated originally, most of what humankind considers progress, I do not.
Ultimately all this blabbering comes from being disappointed in society, as well as myself. The hope that what we make with our hands and what we know in our heads don’t define progress, but who we ARE and how we treat others, as sentient beings, should.
jjgirl13 maybe the universe wanted to know what it was like to have consciousness. And the universe is still evole in. And we are not just in the universe we are part of it. From the big Bang on. It want to know what it was like to br sucidal.
But don’t you think it’s only when faced with adversity things can get better, isn’t that what evolution is, adapting to extreme conditions? Aren’t some of the people on this site on the brink of becoming stronger individuals or succumbing
Scar, do I have to outline every single thing I say?
I said, make of humanity, what you will. When I talked of progress, was it hard to differentiate between what may be spiritual enlightenment and whether our lifespans will become longer? I would hope that you are an individual who can assume what I mean to a degree without me having to create a lexicon for this single post.
If you think humanity is making progress, whatever that progress is, if you believe tomorrow will be a better day for humankind, the next even better, ever so continuing – I hope that belief becomes true. In my short life, I have yet to recognize the trend. I could care less about how fast the wireless is on my phone or how long I’m going to live. If you believe that in the future (progress being progress, meaning that in accumulation it will reach a pinnacle), that humanity will come to an understanding, embody tolerance and acceptance and learn universal love and understanding – I am all for that future.
There won’t be much progress of the kind you speak of in the future simply because in a few years the planet we now know will be completely destroyed thanks to humans’ “progress”.
@Duke, Let’s see how men “evolve” then, when they have to adapt to the ruins of a planet they once destroyed with their “progress”.
And I agree with Swan, I’m not trying to fight here. Only reason I called you dense Scar, was because you made it apparent in your replies that you didn’t take the time to read my post before replying. To be put on the spotlight to defend my position, my position being an opinion – and then after hours of actually spending time reading and pondering every word you responded with, you just blowing me away by asking what I thought was progress (when my post was all about what I thought of current human definitions of progress and how I felt about it), I feel I was rightly offended.
@Duke; I still think you are talking about science. Which is not the point of my post. Of course from an evolutionary perspective, man today has the better means to survive than his ancestor. But I don’t think what makes us unique as sentient beings is our ability to conquer and survive. Hell, I don’t know. Maybe our brains are only as useful as we stay on top of the food chain. And compassion and communication is only facilitated to the extent they help us survive, and anything above and beyond ultimately takes away from man’s ability to survive and is therefore not nurtured. (ex: People who care too much generally get fucked.)
I do think the drive to survive versus adversity, the instinct to ‘get better,’ ‘to improve,’ ‘to progress’ is what drives the human race. I do agree that people on this site will either get stronger or break. Keep in mind, I am not one of those determined to survive.
I don’t know if you missed it in chat yesterday, but I did say that I believe nature wants to weed me out. I don’t have the survival instincts to push forwards. My ability to reason is only as good as much as it allows me to survive. Anything more or less, is unwanted. People admire and love people who want to survive. It’s positive reinforcement of survival instinct. Those who want to self-destruct or commit suicide, are eventually pushed out, or left to regain their survival instincts after so much help. Life is for the living. It’s also why even on sites like this, those who want to live are offered much more support than those who succumb to negative environmental and genetic factors and decide to choose death.
@ swan you don’t know that. No one can see into the future. The only thing the dinosaurs have to show after a hundred million years is a few fossilised remain in museums.
Donnie, I hadn’t thought about that. It very well could be that we are part of the universe, and the universe is experimenting with itself. I honestly don’t know. I wish it didn’t give me feelings that are painful and unbearable though. Fuck that.
The planet will die. That’s inevitable. It probably has another 500m years where it will remain at the optimum level required to sustain life. Whether it exists for a day or for a million years is irrelevant. It’s only with science that we can prolong our lifespan after the planet becomes uninhabitable.
@ Jjgirl I don’t want to go into aryanism but there is an answer to be found and I don’t think you will like it very much.
I’m not sure if I follow, Duke.
What is the question this answer replies to?
Is typing here to a limited audience evidence of humanity’s progress?
Based on the sarcasm in your tone, no.
If you want me to shut up, feel free to say so. If you don’t want to read it, don’t read it. But I have seen you post on other peoples’ post without reading their original post and then be told numerous times to read the conversation before being defensive or hostile.
I never posted to begin with, with negative intent. Criticism comes with the desire to see change, or at least the hope for it.
If all you have is sarcasm, please keep it to yourself.
By being condescending in your comment, stating that I am speaking to a small number of people just helps support my point. Even in a forum like this where understanding and communication is the key point, all you are doing is being is mean-spirited. And don’t tell me that wasn’t your intent. Intent doesn’t need a lot of words to show through.
Excellent. This may be evidence that a human body’s natural bioelectromagnetic field (powered by the photons behind the neurons firing through your brain, heart and muscles) actually ride the energy put into typing on your device, imprint on the displayed message, and the very feelings and emotions of the author are received by the reader. This is a good thing, and worth considering since words seem to have that much power. Perhaps that “positive outlook” non-suicidal people talk about really does affect their lives so unlike ours…?
I also believe the galaxy clusters we can barely fathom are someone else’s subatomic level. Life goes on with or without many lives, but can beleif and communication really improve existence overall?
I was once told that men where conformed by three basic elements: Body, Mind and Spirit. No one doubts that we have advanced in the first two areas, but we remain completely oblivious of our third component which could really make a difference. make us really rise above all the other species and bring peace, harmony and happiness to this world.
Perhaps one day, we will be able to accomplish what the homo-herectus did and be able to walk “straight”; this time within ourselves. Instead of having: body, mind and spirit rule is in such order; this will be reversed and then a different life will lie ahead.
@BlackSwan: I think youre right. Im not religious, but I am spiritual. This is because apparently life and death existed before I became self-aware, and those two things will continue wether or not I put my own mortality on fast-forward. Something is underlying life and death, it may be that energy called spirit. I suppose consequences will rema
in 50% unknown.
@Duke, science is not being able to keep up with the speed in which humans are destroying the world. Soon the poles will be melted and the Amazon will be nonexistent. You seem concerned with prolonging the life expectancy of a human but you seem indifferent to prolonging the life of the planet that supports it. The destruction of this world is not a myth is a reality that we are now facing.
The question that you put forward is this:
Is there any connection between the way a person behaves and their genetic makeup; should we conclude that there has been little change in the essence of being human since we came into being.
In particular you consider behaviour that represents what people often describe as ‘evil’
There are lots of theories on this and there is no definitive answer. Perhaps that’s something we can all agree on.
In fact Heartcore, you are right. I have felt compassion in words, as much as hate, apathy, sadness, happiness. It’s not the medium that conveys the message. It wouldn’t matter if you were typing behind an electronic device or talking to my face. The word, nuance, exists for a reason.
If conveying emotion were entirely impossible via words, no one would ever bother to post anything here.
Is you replying here to a limited audience evidence of humanity’s progress?
Wait, what was progress again?
@ Swan you are either immortal or you are not. The only creature in the universe that can claim to exist is one that can last forever. There are lots of planets just like this one. They all die in the end.
Do you think the suicide rate is higher in industrial society or in what we would consider primitive societies like those that still exist in the amazon and certain places in Africa?
@heartcore
Oh, and to answer your question. Will communication and belief(?) improve existence at all? I guess it depends on the perspective. I’m not quite sure what belief you are referring to. But in the end, everyone has their own definition of progress. It wouldn’t be progress if it didn’t improve the quality of something. Maybe the question you are asking is whether ‘progress’ is something even applicable, to a species, if you are questioning if whether existence can be improved at all.
@Jeb
My guess is that it’s higher in present day, but I don’t know. I also figure when the pressure to survive and to obtain basic necessities like food, water, shelter, clothing is higher on a daily basis, people would have less energy to spend on contemplating suicide.
Duke, I do not question whether a person’s genetic makeup influences their behavior. I personally do believe so. Should we conclude that there has been little change to human behavior since the birth of civilization? I don’t want to make an umbrella statement about human behavior, but in regards to what I consider ‘progress’ vs what is the seeming value of ‘progress’ in society as I perceive, no, I don’t think there has been much change to human behavior.
I do agree that there is no definitive answer. I don’t think of ‘good’ and ‘evil’. I generally try to think of it in terms of whether intentions and acts are based on ‘self-interest,’ and to what extent, and whether it is with or without regard towards others.
I’m not trying to open a whole new can of worms about what ‘self-interest’ consists of. I haven’t slept in almost a day and I think my brain juice is running dry.
It sad that this discussing remains being victim of a question of semantics. If people can’t distinguish between the type “advancement” being debated then we are really not making much “progress” here.
@Duke, first of all the Universe will all be shut off one day. Then I don’t understand your reasoning, help me out here… Just because it’s a fact that the planet will die one day, that gives us the perfect excuse to precipitate it’s death?
@ swan the planet isn’t really that important without us. We are it’s ‘best chance’
I concur with you on that, Swan. Semantics. What a *****.
I guess unavoidable to debate if everyone is working with different definitions.
Haha Duke. I bet the planet is laughing at us right now, telling us that we really aren’t important without it.
JGirl, everyone, thanks for at least humoring my musings. I really need to understand things by bouncing ideas off others’. I’m sorry my own frustrations show through. I try to be as positive as possible because life does go on despite our temporary part in its overarching ecosystem, or whatever this all is.
JGirl, I hope you find satisfaction in your journey.
@Duke, I can’t believe you are saying that! First of all, It is the planet that is our “best chance”, not the other way around. The planet doesn’t need us! It is it which makes live us we know it possible. No “evolution” would have been possible without it. This planet is 4.000.000 years old, the human race is only 300 million years old. It was here before us and if it parishes, we will parish with it.
It’s precisely that short-term selfish mentality of using and abusing everything that is within our reach that hasn’t “evolved” inside us human beings.
I meant to say this planet is 4 thousand million years old and human race only 300 million years old.
Heartcore, no hard feelings. I post and reply so I can get feedback off of what other people think, too. Being positive, as much as possible, is a good thing. You’re right, if we’re going to be alive anyways, might as well make it a good experience.
Btw, Swan. Your body, heart, mind comment was really insightful. Did you quote that from somewhere or was that your own?
Jjgirl13, I wrote it remembering a book my father gave me before he was killed many years ago. It had an impact on me and it remains alive in my memory. I’m trying to look for it online but I can’t find it :(.
@ Swan we’ve been around a lot less than 300m years. Less than a million in fact.
When you eat your body consumes food and uses it as energy. You don’t stop to think, that was a nice piece of chicken or slice of apple, I wish I didn’t have to eat that. In the same way threatens resources are there to be used.
If you imagine a desolate planet inhabited by civilisation of robots that are identical to us in every way but biological function. Isn’t it arguable that they have a more meaningful existence than we do. They are permanent and we are temporary. They are capable influencing the galaxy accumulating infinite knowledge. Our sole purpose, to fulfil this planets legacy would be to achieve something similar directly or facilitate it indirectly. Otherwise there will be no record of the 4 billion years that you seem to have such an appreciation.
I thought a record of something is only relevant if there is someone to read it.
Swan, it must have been a good book your father gave you.
@Duke, sorry I wrote meant 300 thousand years. Now I’ll read the rest of your comment.
@Duke, Humans just like any other species have the right to use the natural resources around them in order to survive. But humans are abusing it to gain more money and power at a speed that the planet can’t keep up and heal. If this were an “advanced” species, it would be consensual and unarguable among all nations that this process needs to be stopped.
I don’t know of the existence of any robots or aliens in other parts of the universe nor does this issue concern me, all I know is that rationally this “progress” without conscious will eventually lead to self-destruction.