Tick.
Is for pain and suffering.
Tock.
For despair.
Tick.
For boredom.
Tock.
For social isolation.
Tick.
There goes prejudice and hate.
Tock.
Theres some love gone to waste.
Tick.
I’m being misunderstood.
Tock.
It’s too late to do anything but drink.
There comes a point when you realise that human worth IS quantifyable, but only with respect to how OTHERS judge that worth. There is no objective measure of worth (because the omnipotent god is unlikely to exist) and so, it’s true, the only thing that matters is how others percieve your worth.
What if my percieved worth only amounts to the $30 worth of whisky I’m filled with?
105 comments
It’s erroneously and dubiously quantifiable, yes. It’s also possible to take the averages from the total asset-worth of everyone we can know about who exists, and determine an expected average “worth,” of the typical person’s life. In fact, certain organizations have already done this, and last i checked, the estimated dollar-value of a human life was somewhere around $8-9 million dollars. Though with inflation, it’s probably closer to ~$12 million by now.
So, “what if” your perceived self-worth only amounts to ~$30 worth of whiskey?
Well, i’d counter with: “you could probably do something to feel worth more than $30.”
Then again, i lack faith in the validity of any monetary currency, and only accept it as “valid” because that’s the way the inescapable system works. Some people place very little value on “money.” I would argue that the value of a human life is inherently infinite, because it is a non-replenishable, non-sustainable, perishable commodity. It’s something that must be used maximally, while it occurs, in order for it to have any value at all, aside from the value of potential itself. And i would also make an argument that potential can be extremely valuable as well. With potential, we have both reason to believe, and possibility of achieving. Without potential… there is literally nothing more we can do. Lacking potential makes it almost impossible to believe we should attempt any further action at all. If you literally cannot do something, then the lack of chance to complete that which would be done, tends to severely limit our ability to create a reason to do anything useful.
If you want your life to have value, you have to value your chance to give it value, enough to expend whatever effort is required, to establish a series of conditions and circumstances, which allows you to access the resources required to actualize your potential… and in so doing, you must value each moment as it passes.
Live the moments as they pass. Try to do what you want to do. The chance to do what you want to do, are what makes life valuable.
If you can’t do anything but suffer, then you have a problem, and the solution to that problem is going to include changing the conditions and circumstances that obstruct your access to what you want.
Going through life pretending that it’s okay to just go without, and that you don’t really want anything that isn’t easy or even possible to reach, isn’t going to make you happy, and won’t convince you you’re worth more than $30.
Clevername, although I appreciate your response, I feel the need to be straight with you.
You and I aint never gonna be cool. You’re a mysogynist and a bigot and I believe you use this forum to inflate your own ego rather than to genuinely make others feel better. Your long-winded comments seem to serve more as a platform for you to talk about yourself, rather than to give solace to the poster – I’ve seen you on more than one occasion hijack a post and bully the poster by saying over and over again ‘get over it. And if you don’t agree with me, that’s your problem.’
That is simply not constructive on this website. Most people are here because they lack the resources to ‘just get over it’. And if you had an inkling of empathy, you would have figured that out by now.
The estimation of a human life being $8-9 million dollars is not applicable to me. I dumpster dive for food. I rarely purchase goods and services because I get many things I require by bartering my own skills and possessions. I rarely undertake paid work, because the rates I charge mean that I only need to really work about 3 months to keep me going for the rest of the year. I prefer instead to volunteer my services to those who don’t have the financial resources to pay for them.
I gave the example of my life being equivelant to $30 simple to give the layman an idea of how I and others percieve my worth. The financial aspect was irrelevant to the story, it was a metaphor. Don’t get caught up in the mechanics – people are generally more complicated than that.
I remember you.
I think you commented on a couple of my posts. I’m not sure if I ever thanked you, so, thank you.
Anyhow;
If someone were to perceive your entire worth as $30 of whiskey, then that individual needs to open there eyes. Perception is a measure of how acute or attuned your senses are in regards to “looking vs. seeing”.
For example, let’s say that I’m walking about town and I happen past someone drinking $30 worth of whiskey. I’d say “hmm, I’m looking at someone drinking whiskey”, but what I’m truly thinking is “I see a kindred person doing there best to cope with the situation they’ve been handed.
I guess what I’m tryna say is that we all perceive things differently. We perceive ourselves differently to how others might. What you’re looking at isn’t exactly what you see.
Good to see you back on SP.
I got you.
It’s a shame that those closer to my life couldn’t validate me that way that you just did. However, in the absence of other options, I guess a vague internet entity is worth something more than nothing.
Thanks.
Hello rogue.
I cant seem to stop crying long enough to read a post thru. I’ll get right back to you.
Sure thing, is everything alright?
Nothing is alright.
Aint that the truth. Nothing is ever alright.
Despair. Boredom. Social isolation.
I relate to these three words entirely, I guess I could even perceive them from someone who harboured these feelings as you may/may not. Those closest to us seem to be in this constant state of denial which, although helpful in some cases, can certainly cause feelings of “lack of interest” to emit from them. To place too much relevance on them can quite often cause more confusion than it’s worth.
I’m not sure if it’s intrigue or genuine interest but, for lack of a better phrase, you’ve certainly caught my attention.
Well, look after yourself, I aint sure where in the world you are but here in NZ it’s ’round about bedtime.
From here, take care and might I see you round the site, yeah? =)
No one can ever put a price on a kindred soul. Your worth is measurable only by the strength you possess to follow the path you have chosen, and to honour the decisions, the choices that you make in every day life. The hell with what I or anyone else says.
New zealand? I thought you were elsewhere.
I don’t frequent this site too much because there are too many bullies on it. Those who are not capable of standing their own ground (which happens to be, suprise suprise, the majority of suicidals) are bullied into submission by those who happen to possess greater vocabulary and seek to raise thier own profiles by standing on other’s necks. The lifeblood has become contaminated.
All the best to you sir.
I am neither a misogynist nor a bigot, and if you actually believe that i am, then you are choosing to believe something other than reality, despite available evidence to the contrary, which is called “delusion.”
But you know what? You should get over it. And if you disagree, then that’s your problem, and it will stay your problem, because you have chosen not to get over it.
You clearly prefer to see a contrived and erroneous fabrication as “true,” which is not something i can ever respect.
So maybe you really are only worth the whiskey in your gut.
But in case you weren’t “listening,” i attempted to convey to you that i think everyone is worth more than a bottle of booze. If you want to try to demonize me for placing a higher intrinsic value on a human being than you do, then guess which one of us that makes look bad.
Meanwhile, you can take your man-hating-pseudo-feminist BS, and stick it in whatever hole makes you feel good. But i’m not going to sit here and act like you’re better than me just because you were lucky enough to be born with a vagina, in a world where women hold the real power, but most don’t even realize it.
So whatever. Keep acting like you think the world should worship you for being born female, and then being offended when someone doesn’t want to call that “equality.”
@clevername, you are incredibly mysogynist. You said:
“most women are naturally irrational and deceptive, and have no need of reality or logic, they don’t even understand what bigotry means, while flinging it at every human who happens to lack a vagina, while accusing those who lack vaginas of being “sexist.â€
I don’t think it gets any more mysoginyst that that.
As for my ‘man-hating-pseudo feminist BS’… I have no idea what you’re referring to. I don’t hate men at all. Some of my best friends are men and they’re cool with me and my vagina, and I’m cool with them and their penis.
I’m not sure I ever stated that I think the world should worship me for being born female. I simply expressed a desire not to be hated for the fact that I was born female. That logic appears to be wasted on you. You may continue to hate me simply because I was born a woman. That is your perogative, and not one worth much in my world view so by all means, continue making a fool of yourself.
“I don’t think it gets any more mysoginyst that that.”
Explain how expressing a reliably reproducible observation equates to hating women.
Oh, is that because MOST WOMEN ARE IRRATIONAL? Is it irrational to accuse me of “hating women,” just because i noticed and expressed a truth they dislike? Because IMO, demonizing someone who speaks the truth, just because you dislike the truth, is quite irrational. You should be agreeing with me, because we both dislike that same truth. The problem is that you’re blaming typical female irrationality on me, when it’s not my fault they are irrational. I didn’t choose for typical women to be irrational. I’m simply pointing out a problem that needs to be corrected, because it’s not a problem i can correct all by myself, since i can’t force anyone to be right. I can only identify and communicate that such a problem exists, to those specific people who can correct it in themselves.
Also: i don’t have to automatically hate everyone who is irrational… but it’s not always the easiest thing to avoid feeling. Most people who are irrational, are irrational because they have not been given the tools for critical thinking, and that’s usually the fault of their own parents, who suffered the same neglect from theirs.
Women have become inclined toward deception, because they typically lack genetically robust physical disposition toward the development of strength and application of brute force.
Most women are not as physically strong, and so they must learn deception and psychological manipulation tactics, in order to influence others, rather than simply threatening with violence, like typical men often resort to.
If you can’t physically kick someone’s ass, the alternative is to trick them. I’m not “being hateful” at all, when i say “most women are deceptive.” Deception is a “yin” strength. Physical violence is a “yang” strength.
I don’t hate women or females just for being female. I am not a misogynist. I hate people who do what typical feminists do, which is to claim they want “equal treatment,” while totally disregarding all the surplus special treatment they already receive, and then demand more, while demonizing any male who disagrees and points it out for being what it really is: an expectation and entitlement error.
I only hate women who preach superiority under the guise of equality. Which is pretty much anyone labeling themselves “feminist.” The name itself exposes the truth. The truth is that feminists really want greater-than-equal treatment. And like another frequent poster recently SHOWED, and was not even remotely rebutted, feminists ignore all the advantages they already have by being spared from so much negative and damaging things that most men deal with, while also demanding equal or better, and technically unfair treatment, which amounts to being granted special privileges just for having a vagina. Being hired and better paid for something a man is more qualified for, is not “equal.” Equal is an androgynous meritocracy… but that is not what “feminism” is all about. And if feminism is about erasing gender identity (which many would surely argue it has demonstrated evidence of being), then that’s wrong too! To be human means to accept the nature of our genders, whether physical or psychological… not removing them entirely from consideration or relevance.
The entire thing is an agenda meant to mislead gullible females, which, unfortunately, outnumber intelligent males (and females too).
“most women are irrational…”
is not even close to the same thing as saying:
“all women are irrational and i hate them.” <– never said that.
You simply decided that was true, despite evidence to the contrary that you ignored because you didn't want to think what was true, but instead, wanted to demonize a man for being a man and saying anything negative about any woman.
Typical, again, how so many women are so inclined to try to stick up for each other, without bothering to determine who or what is right or wrong. All you see is: "MAN SAY BAD THING MAN BAD, BAD MAN! BAD!"
I don't hate women at all. I hate the stupid shit that fills so many of their skulls, which in turn makes them either useless or even harmful to me. And no, i won't agree that women should be harmful to me by having their heads filled with bullshit.
It's not just women or men, but all humans, who need to be taught and learn how to think, instead of going around creating unnecessary problems based on total fantasies and lies.
@clevername
hating women for the attributes that you ascribe to the majority is a generalisation. Generalisations make you prone to bigotry. You are judging me on the grounds of your (incorrect) generalisations of my gender. That is bigotry. You can argue all you like, it doesn’t change the fact that you are a biggot.
All I ask is for you to pay me the same respect as I pay you. On the grounds of me as an individual. Regardless of race, gender or creed. I really don’t think it’s a big ask.
However, I understand that in order to inflate your own sense of worth, you need to have the last word. So go ahead. You’re only embarrassing yourself.
And once again, you hijack the thread to make it all about you, your ego, your desperate need to prove yourself right at the expense of justice, sanity or empathy. I know this is very easy to achieve on a suicide site filled with vulnerable people seeking direction.
Youre ‘right’ is not everyone’s right. You need to learn to respect other’s right, and not simply belittle them until they are forced to agree with you.
@beckyj …. I’m not trying to be against you or on anybody sides but just from reading the back and forth I think you are proving the very thing he is trying to say….It’s like how if somebody says something against Israel they are automatically branded as antisemitic or if a white person critiques obama he is automatically a racist…hell if black people critique obama they are labeled “sellouts” and “uncle toms”…. I saw nothing he said that indicates a hatred of women…
Clevername: “I don’t hate women at all. I hate the stupid shit that fills so many of their skulls, which in turn makes them either useless or even harmful to me. And no, i won’t agree that women should be harmful to me by having their heads filled with bullshit.”
You: “hating women for the attributes that you ascribe to the majority is a generalisation. Generalisations make you prone to bigotry.”
You are spoon feeding words…. Now I may not agree with everything clevername says all the time but I can acknowledge when he may be right….it’s not always about being “right” but its about correcting something you may see to be wrong and who knows you may even be wrong while trying to correct someone but you can’t accuse him of hijacking this thread when you opened up the conversation….his original post was directed toward the topic of the thread then you called him a bigot and misogynist….if you disagreed all you had to do was say that but you can’t call someone something like that and expect them to not at least express their POV so that they aren’t falsely viewed as something they aren’t….
Also… “Right” is not subjective….it is objective….well…somethings are….bigots and misogynist have objective definitions they can’t be thrown around to suit a persons POV….he does not fit the objective definition of either of those words and I’m not trying to be on anybodies side but I’m just giving my unbiased POV….
I refer you to this thread and challenge you to read clevername’s comments and come to any conclusion apart from the idea that he believes women are fundamentally flawed and inferior to men.
http://suicideproject.org/2013/10/the-worlds-fucked/
He has sadly bullied off this site at least one (probably more) intelligent and articulate person who stood up to him. since most people on a suicide site simply are not willing to expose themselves to further antagonism, it is easier simply not to stand up to him.
Just incase you missed the OP, I’m having a particularly bad day. I did not put up this post to engage in a shouting match. I simply pointed out that feedback from certain people is not welcome because their opinion, in my eyes, is worthless.
Oh my my my … would i like to study this thread and comment in depth 🙂
To be fair … there’d be no need for feminism if women weren’t subjugated and treated as 2nd class citizens (if they even got that much credit) throughout history. Women rightfully can be disgruntled for their historical treatment … but that does not justify swinging the pendulum waaay far over to the other side … all while still claiming the benefit and hiding behind the stereotype of their historic moniker of being considered by men (historic men of the past) as “the weaker sex”.
A lot of bullshit beliefs have been dogmatically instilled in the population regarding how women should be viewed and treated … most comes through religion … these wall need to be broken down by both men AND women searching for common ground and understanding … it’s more important to listen and understand each other than to bash each other with frying pans and call names and hang labels .. I can be reasonably assured to still hold old school prejudices simply because i’ve been on this planet longer than most and had more bullshit shoveled into my brain on a regular basis … despite my contrary view that women should be treated equally … i still have to overcome those things that have long been part of my environment … that doesn’t make me a hateful misogynist … it just means i need more reprogramming with a new standard to supplant the old data.
That said … I don’t/didn’t read CL’s comments as misogynistic or sexist as mush as i see where he might have so lingering old fashioned data banging around his bean … but overall he is trying to be helpful – and his points were on point and valid regarding value of members of the species
More time spent listening to what we have in common and how to firm up that commonality is needed
unisex dawg
@dawg, you’re spot on. There would be no need for feminism if women weren’t discriminated against in the first place. However, contrary to CL’s accusations, I don’t complain about it. I don’t blame all men for this inequality, I understand that inequality is created by mistakes of history that happened to become the mainstream discourse, and that inequality is reinforced by the status quo. I do not hold men or individual man responsible for this. It is sadly just how civilisation progressed.
I do however take offense at generalities that have been directed at me on the grounds of my gender.
Read this thread. it’s hard to class CL as anything other than a mysogist when he says things like: (and these are all direct quotes)
“most women are naturally irrational and deceptive, and have no need of reality or logic”
“Of course i’m anti-feminist. Feminism is fucking bullshit. Feminism is all about undeserved female superiority, preached under the guise of equality. But it is far from equality.” – he obviously has done very little reading about feminism and what it means. Feminism is about the understanding that, although men and women are very different, they should have the same rights.
“I’m going to spend the rest of my life flaming and bashing and shaming any feminist, because they all fucking deserve it.” – Many thanks. I hope that works out for you. ‘They all fucking deserve it’??? Just because you might have been wronged by a few feminists, you want to flame, bash and shame all of them? That is a hate crime, according to the United Nations.
“Because i’m the one who understands what “equality†and “fairness†means, not any woman i’ve ever met” – I guess you haven’t met that many women. But to be fair, I understand why they’d feel the need to keep away from you.
“It’s so goddamn typical… every woman does this.” – ummm… generalise much?
“Many women choose to believe the fantasy they prefer, rather than acknowledging the reality which contradicts it. There are a few out there who do realize the truth, but they are certainly a minority. ” ho hum. more generalisations.
“Lots of “feminists†automatically dislike me because i am male.” – no, I dislike you because you are a douchebag, not because you are male. I actually quite like males.
“Women are stereotypically theatrical and vindictive, commonly overreacting to anything which displeases them. I’m not “being sexist,†i’m stating a highly common and evidenced observation.”
“People want to act like rape is the most horrible thing in the world, but i can assure you there are quite a few far worse things. Psychologists like to pretend rape is about power and gender-issues and other absurdities; it’s really just about a guy wanting what guys are supposed to want, and having no other option but to simply impose his will upon someone and take it.” – the implication here is that rape is a natural phenomena because guys are ‘supposed’ to want sex at all costs. No… sex is about intimacy. and you can’t have intimacy if you are forcing someone. Rape IS about power – rape is not the same as sex.
“Tell a woman she can’t have something she wants. Watch what she does. The result might differ, but the dynamic is the same.” more generalisations.
“Until i encounter evidence that most women are not actively justifying any of my generalizations, i will continue to express those typical indications i commonly observe.” – read – until someone has the stamina to out-argue me to the point where I finally open my eyes and look around the world, I will remain ignorant of the world.
“That’s another typical thing that women do: they all seem to want any excuse to attempt to justify putting the blame on me” the violin is coming out now.”
“Women repeatedly show that they see only superficial value in most men”
Really? You can read this and genuinely believe this person is respectful and fair?
I probably shouldn’t get involved here, but, I just wanted to say that Clevername is correct in some of his generalisations – although they are just that, generalisations. These traits are true for some women and untrue for others.
I’m not going to say that every man is violent and verbally aggressive when he doesn’t get what he wants, because I know that there are those men who have, let’s say, ‘meek’ personalities, and wouldn’t dream of hurting a fly.
Men are also very much capable of utilizing deception and manipulation to achieve their desired ends. It takes certain characteristics to be able to pull this off properly. Not everyone can do it, so not all women do this either.
It is also erroneous to simply think that women will jump on attacking a man at every available opportunity. I suppose if a women has been offended by a man she might dissuade her friends against him as well, but can’t this happen with anyone? I am female myself, and I’ve experienced other females spreading rumors about me, and thus lost the favour of the entire community (both male and female). Some women are petty and small-minded, yes, but men can be that way just as much. Men can develop hurt feelings and want to respond in a passive aggressive manner (instead of immediately reacting with loud anger or violence).
One should take into account the different personality characteristics of each human being. The ancient Greeks believed that there were four main ‘Temperaments’ (as according to Wikipedia):
“Sanguine: quick, impulsive, and relatively short-lived reactions. (hot/wet)
Phlegmatic: a longer response-delay, but short-lived response. (cold/wet)
Choleric: short response time-delay, but response sustained for a relatively long time. (hot/dry)
Melancholic (Also called “Melancholy”): long response time-delay, response sustained at length, if not, seemingly, permanently. (cold/dry)[6]
Therefore, it was evident that the sanguine and choleric shared a common trait: quickness of response, while the melancholy and phlegmatic shared the opposite, a longer response. The melancholy and choleric, however, shared a sustained response, and the sanguine and phlegmatic shared a short-lived response. That meant that the choleric and melancholy both would tend to hang on to emotions like anger, and thus appear more serious and critical than the fun-loving sanguine, and the peaceful phlegmatic. However, the choleric would be characterized by quick expressions of anger, while the melancholy would build up anger slowly, silently, before exploding. Also, the melancholy and sanguine would be sort of “opposites”, as the choleric and phlegmatic, since they have opposite traits.”
Clevername isn’t “wrong,” per se, he just hasn’t seemed to have looked at the bigger picture and considered all the varying personalities of both men and women.
He IS wrong in the way that he perceives HIS right is the only right. Yes, he fails to look at the bigger picture, but he insists he has done so. This is… Wrong. There really is no other descriptor for it.
@beckyJ I read that thread….I commented on it too….I think you took his comments on feminism as a personal attack on you…. I’m specifically talking about his comments on feminism …. I have no problem with those comments because they make sense….I read nothing that indicated he thought that women were inferior etc etc ….unless he comes outright and says that you cannot interpret his comments to mean that unless you have specific examples of his comments that you can correctly determine that is how he feels….it’s like if a white person says they hate obama….they are not racist for saying that….but you can bet many people will interpret them as such simply because they are white and he is black and the word “hate” was used….
I also think to say he bullied people off here is a little over dramatic….I mean yes he is very confident and adamant in some of his positions and beliefs but just because he defends those positions doesn’t qualify him as a bully imo.
There are many people including myself who have debated and have had conflicting views on many things with clevername however in the end you have to state your POV and agree to disagree but even in heated debates you shouldn’t hold any grudges I mean after all it is only 1 mans opinion he can not affect you with his opinion over the net….now if he lived in your house or something that’s a different story….
I’m sorry you are having a bad day and of course you don’t want your post to go in a different direction than intended but all I’m just saying if you felt that way all you had to do was ignore his advice or just say I disagree and move on….once you open the door…people will come in…
No I did not take those comments as a personal attack on me. Because he did not say ‘beckyj is irrational and illogical’ he didn’t even say ‘some women are irrational and illogical’. He said: ‘women are irrational and illogical’. That is a blanket statement, and if you want to ignore that fact, that is your prerogative.
He did bully people off. Stendars ***** countered his insane logic until she was bashing herself against a brick wall. Her logic was no match for his stamina. Some others, like insidious and lorax tried to talk sense. His arguments were not more valid, they were just louder, and everyone just have up on the lost cause. Note that the poor OP didn’t even bother to make an appearance. Probably he felt her voice was being hijacked (it was) and the sad outcome was that some people don’t even have an outlet on a suicide forum.
Also – my being female has never given me any advantages in life, or very few that I’m aware of. If it had, I wouldn’t have been on a suicide site. I’ve been technically unemployed for a few years now, and my being a moderately attractive woman (I think) has not assisted me in getting a job. If I were to get a job, my salary would in all likelihood be limited to only minimum wage, as I have no qualifications. I was also under the impression that men are paid more than women in some professions. Perhaps it all depends on the employers.
From my experience, being an attractive women actually works against you in a highly skilled job. People assume you only got to your position because of your looks, and so they don’t take your skill set or intellect seriously. I think the only jobs when looks benefit you are demeaning low paid jobs like waitressing, stripping and bartending. There are the fortunate few who can model or act, and then looks are a prerequisite anyway
All generalizations are false
… except of course, for the one i started this paragraph with which by being true makes the generalization that all generalizations are false … false … by being true
This is why they should be avoided as a matter of principle – there are always exceptions – and the exception is usually found with the first listener to the spoken generalization.
I can disagree with CL’s position on feminism on the grounds that the empowerment of women is required and long overdue even though feminism has had a long run going back to the 60s and 70s … there is still a lot that needs to be equalized – that said, there are some methods and beliefs that the feminist movement holds and espouses that is just ludicrous and ends up lumping otherwise good men who would easily be allies in with the male neanderthal religious zealot who want women to remain barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen (on their knees preferably even though if i recall this is considered an abomination but that’s one of those things in the “Book” that is evidently optional)
Bottom line – debate the academic point – not the person/personality … as soon as name calling enters the fray, logic goes out the window.
Intelligent people (which around here there are many) can reflect and review their positions in the face of new and contrary information and facts and amend their position accordingly … right up until someone starts calling names or attacking them as a person – then the facts/information get’s lost in the fray … and THAT is unproductive
ref dawg
@dawg …The only reason I agree with his position is because of the way feminism operates….they say they want “equality”….but either they want it or they do not…..nothing can be “partially equal” because that doesn’t make sense…..you won’t hear one single feminist advocating for equal sentencing laws for crimes or for equal funding and awareness to prostate cancer as breast cancer has….
I’m not saying they don’t deserve to be treated equally not at all…but if that is truly the motive then demand that in its fullness…..it’s like they want all the advantages of being a man then when it suits their needs they want they advantages of being a female….aka superiority….men don’t EVER get the advantages women have because they are men….but women get the advantages that men have in addition to the advantages they already have just by being a woman….you can look at child support and alimony to see that….
If they truly wanted equality then they would demand the disadvantages right along with the advantages….but in reality they only advocate for the advantages and turn a blind eye to the disadvantages…
You need to do some reading about feminism.
positive discrimination laws exist because of the history of subjagation of women. Positive discrimination is a way of mitifying that history. You argue that you want pure equality – but how does one achieve that in an unequal world?
Personally I have never benefitted from positive discrimination. I let those loopholes go to those in greater need. But I can attest, it did mean I had to work twice as hard to prove myself.
Silly me! I just realised the insanity of me speaking from personal experience, when I am only going to be judged on broad generalisations of my gender anyway!
It’s tragic how futile it is to explain these distinctions.
Women can be strong and smart if they want.
Observing reality proves this is not the most popular choice.
The ONLY places in the world where any of this is actually needed, are in the middle east, where women really do have few, if any rights, and are treated similar to cattle. That’s disgusting.
And then i turn my gaze back to the western world, and think “wtf is wrong with these extremely modern women who do not see that they are so often spared from so much agony, just by being female?”
Not only that… so many of them continually demonize every man who isn’t their prince-charming, while constantly bitching about “generalizations.”
You know what? I distinctly remember catching all kinds of bullshit over being “overly specific,” several times. So, i can’t generalize, i can’t be too specific.
Am i even allowed to have an opinion? Or is that something only women should ever have?
If i attempt to have an opinion, and it ends up not being what women want me to think, does that suddenly mean that i “hate all women?” Or am i “old school,” or “primitive,” or “caveman,” because i’m not doing backflips trying to promote everything that women want me to think is true?
And you people then wonder why i sometimes reach the point where i don’t want to feel any empathy anymore?
I honestly don’t want to care at all. But unfortunately, i wasn’t blessed with sociopathy, so i have no idea how to turn it off.
And i also have no idea how to think it’s just fine and dandy that lots of people are promoting ridiculously stupid and incorrect ideas that will certainly continue causing me detriment while they are allowed to proliferate.
IMO, “typical women” are FAR worse with their generalizations than i have /ever/ been. But tolerating bullshit isn’t netting me any gains, so i refuse to do it.
@beckyj…..you completely ignored everything I said and brought up something which I didn’t even comment on…that is called “straw-men tactics” …..I never said anything about positive discrimination although that is an issue as well I never said anything about that in that comment….
“You argue that you want pure equality – but how does one achieve that in an unequal world?” – Ummm wouldn’t that be a fitting question to ask those feminist with their distorted view of “equality?”
You may not have benefited from that particular aspect of feminism however you will benefit from it at one point or another….
If you ever were to commit a crime would you demand to be sentenced to the same as a man and adamantly demand to not be given the advantage of being a woman which is a lesser sentence?
If your brother (for the sake of the post lets say you have one) was accused of rape would you demand that all the evidence be addressed and thoroughly scrutinized? rather than off the word of the accuser?
Upon a divorce from your husband would you be willing to pay him alimony? would you be willing to give him the children? and pay child support if he was honestly the better parent… (do not say women are automatically better parents tits and punanny do not make you a better parent automatically)
“.they say they want “equalityâ€â€¦.but either they want it or they do not…..” That sounded like a reference to positive discrimination. Sorry if I misunderstood, it i have no idea what else you could be referencing. To me, feminism is equality, and anyone who disagrees is referencing radical feminisms emphasis on positive discrimination. Probably because they have limited knowledge of what feminism means.
You’re right. I have benefitted from feminism. I can vote and study and work In a highly paid profession. I’m not complaining about this. Are you?
If I committed a crime and I was guilty, I would not have the cheek to demand anyhing. I have actually committed a crime and been sentenced. And I did not beg leniency on the grounds of being a woman – I was granted leniency on the grounds of being young and stupid and making a mistake, and holding international scholarships attested to the fact that my future as a law abiding citizen was more worthwhile to my future as a prisoner. My gender simply did not come into play.
If my brother were up for rape, of course I would demand all the evidence to be scrutinised – as it always should be.
If I divorced my husband I probably would not pay alimony – because I don’t think its fair. Just as I don’t believe all women deserve alimony. My mother never recieved alimony and she never asked for it.
If the court decided my husband was a better parent, of course I would pay child support.
Your line of questioning seems to assume that just because I am a feminist, I believe that women should always get the upper hand. An this is where I point out, your perceptions of feminism are incorrect. If you want to debate what feminism is, I wan to know your credentials In tht field.
“He IS wrong in the way that he perceives HIS right is the only right. Yes, he fails to look at the bigger picture, but he insists he has done so. This is… Wrong. There really is no other descriptor for it.”
You’re so sure i’m wrong about something… but you haven’t explained what i’m wrong about.
And if you really think about it, there is only one right. If i get it before you, then i’m right and you’re not… until you get it too. Then we can both be right.
You think i haven’t seen the bigger picture, but i’m probably the only one who has!
You still seem to be misrepresenting my position as being “absolutely all,” in place of where i said “most.”
Generalizations are not wrong, especially when everyone here SHOULD KNOW what a “generalization” actually is. It’s a time saver, a way to not need to be quite so specific, and a way to represent an overwhelming majority.
When i say “most,” i NEVER mean “all.” But you are acting like i do. That’s irrational.
I never said women should have less rights. I never said they shouldn’t be empowered. I never said anything about them being inherently inferior. Physically weaker, typically, on average, yes… but not incapable of competitive physical development. Some women are total badasses, but not most. Most women don’t want to go through the agonizing and torturous process of becoming physically amazing. Most men don’t either! But more women seem to decline to do so, where men are actually expected to do so, and are typically doubted as men, when they aren’t impressing everyone with their marathon stamina and herculean strength.
Again, i’m being scapegoated, by a feminist, because she doesn’t want to own up to the reality of her own choices.
How is that supposed to convince me i’m wrong?
@Clevername I hope you know I’m not attacking you. I realize that you have gone through experiences that have lead you to possess your particular perspective. I’m only saying that personality traits are the most important variable, as that is part of what causes people to act in certain ways. There are some women who one might want to always consider ‘irrational,’ and then there are some men who might not be able to control their emotions and also act irrationally. But each human being is capable of some level of self-analysis (even if it might take the directive of a therapist or some such). If a person is aware of what triggers a certain emotional state, they should be able to be more in control of themselves, and either shut down or walk away from the problem, until it can be resolved peaceably.
No one should blame anyone for anything. In today’s world, women are thankfully considered to be on a level with men. Yes, some men are more intelligent, more erudite, more acute, than many women, but there are also many females who are remarkably bright. If one thinks one is going in circles with a certain ‘type’ of woman or man, then perhaps one should do one’s best to limit one’s interactions with such individuals. The fact of the matter is that the most intellectual individuals aren’t as numerous as the rest, for whatever reason, so to find this sort of either gender is uncommon. On this website there is an impressive number of such types (now and in the past), as I have noted. In real life, I haven’t come across these types as often. However, everyone has varying degrees of intelligence. Some can think more deeply than others, some are more apathetic. All anyone can do is work with what they have. It would be pointless to condemn others for not comprehending one’s own perspective. A person should try to approach people at their own level as much as possible, and see where it goes from there. Misunderstandings cannot be helped sometimes, but one should also do their best to carefully consider their ‘biases’ in any given circumstance, and realize where an exception might be necessary.
@beckyj ….SB had more issues with clevername other than his view on feminism and even still it was only his opinion….Opinions are like assholes…everybody has one and some are full of shit….but at the end of the day that is all they are….I am suicidal and I have been insulted on here several times by users that didn’t agree with something I said but it doesn’t affect me because its only online correspondence ….it isn’t like we are all neighbors hashing this out in a community center or something…
He never insulted SB or anybody else on that thread for that matter….a debate is a debate and should be accepted as that not “bullying”….he never disrespected her….I mean it may have gotten a bit heated as debates tend to do but it never got to the point where it was chaotic and just an insult party…
The OP could have said something if they wanted to….I mean they never responded to any of the comments so maybe they just posted and didn’t want to talk about it….that happens sometimes….not everyone who post is looking for comments sometimes they just need to vent….nobody duct taped her hands and said she couldn’t comment on her own post….furthermore she has all the power over that post…she could have deleted it, edited comments or deleted comments…. so don’t pretend as if she was powerless to silence anybody….she could have easily said “I don’t want any further comments outside the OP or they will be deleted” and that would have been that
I also think you need to realize a blanket statement is never talking about all….unless he specifically makes it known he means all then it should be taken as a generalization…actually he couldn’t even logically talk about all women because he doesn’t know all women…its like if I said “men are strong”….its implied that I don’t mean all because I don’t know all men so I have no possible way of knowing that ALL men are strong….
@perse: i didn’t feel like you were attacking me.
If we only listen to the people who have had everything go wonderfully for them, then we won’t see reality. That’s part of why i hate TV so much. It makes people expect things that are just not realistic at all, and focus on things that shouldn’t be prioritized.
“A person should try to approach people at their own level as much as possible…”
Depending on which way you meant this…
There isn’t anyone at my level who can be observed, let alone approached.
But if you meant it the other way… then yeah. Sometimes you have to “stoop to their level,” and communicate on someone else’s terms, in order to give them a better chance to understand you. I’m aging rapidly. Stooping hurts.
I should probably shift my focus and prioritize my judgment heuristics, and eliminate unnecessary encounters more effectively, by making better predictions about whether someone is willing and able, or even equipped, to understand what i might convey. If i think they’re unlikely to understand, i shouldn’t waste my time, or theirs.
@clevername yes. Save us all the antagonism. I expressed that your feedback is unwelcome on my thread and I explained why. That should have been enough.
@pnl of course the OP could have interjected at any time. But see the situation from her perspective: she’s a depressed girl and one of the problems is that other people tell her what to do with her own body. Then Some people get on Her thread and call her insane. And then they instigate a debate about sexism. Now, regardless of whether this girl identifies as feminist or not is irrelevant. She probably just saw that she was getting the same bullshit judgement on a suicide site as she did in real life, and thought ‘fuck that why bother’ and jumped ship. If this girl had experienced a bit more empathy and a bit less judgement, she might feel like her voice was not silenced on a forum which is meant to be about giving everyone a voice.
@beckyJ… What?….that makes no sense…my credentials in feminism? I wasn’t aware it was a degree program you could get a bachelors degree in….but upon a few google searches I discovered it was a real thing although I think that is a stupid moniker to give to the study of oppression… “feminist studies” lol…like its funny how people don’t even see anything wrong with that name….like why not call it “gender studies”? but “equality” right?
Anyways I have no credentials in “feminist studies” as I’m sure most feminist don’t either….yet they are feminist….so why isn’t that required of feminist? to have a degree in what they are promoting rather than claim everyone else must have one to understand the basic concept of it?….do you have any credentials in “feminist studies?” if you do that is great maybe you can help me to understand my problems with feminism…if not then don’t require something of me that you don’t posses
Also when I say “benefit from feminism” I’m not referring to the typical outer benefits ….I’m talking about the ones you conveniently forgot to mention….like child support laws and alimony and gender bias in courts and the easy tools women have at their disposal such as false DV charges and false rape accusations and false sexual harassment lawsuits and the like…YES I am complaining about that.
That is preposterous to believe that your gender didn’t come into play! the jury judge and whomever else took notice in the fact that you were a woman….in fact that’s probably the first thing they noticed about you…your gender and race….and those 2 things determine your sentence more than any other factor in the case….
I phrased the 2nd question with the brother wrong I meant to say if your sister said a guy raped her and blah blah blah…but would your answer remain the same? if it was your sister?
The inherent problem with Feminism from the very beginning and to this day is that implies that women can succeed and excel in life and in the world based solely on their gender, and they never could before simply because they were ‘oppressed.’ Feminism never stated, “if you work really, really hard, study, make great sacrifices, and dedicate yourself, then you will succeed.â€
“Your line of questioning seems to assume that just because I am a feminist, I believe that women should always get the upper hand.” – umm this is exactly what feminism is…..otherwise like I always say why don’t they demand the disadvantages as well?
Look you know what this is why I don’t come here often. Because rogue-lonesome was really the only one to address the op and offer aupport without getting entrenched in politics. If you come to this site looking for support, sadly you have a small chance of finding it. I’m sure that’s the reason why so many users leave. For gods sake, get over yourself everybody, and just have some empathy.
Prior to that crazy thread, SB has been one of my favorite people here. It’s unfortunate that we couldn’t find a way to get along.
But i don’t tend to react very nicely when people start treating me like the world’s most disgusting male, due to their own misunderstandings, while there are so many men out there who… are just horribly evil, who are still receiving benefits from the ways they manipulate women; and some of those same women are the ones who will turn around and accuse me of being disgusting, while in the middle of being totally exploited by some other guy who has blatantly misrepresented himself, but that’s okay because he has one or more of the characteristics that “most women” apparently value as justification for submitting to exploitation… meanwhile, they’ll talk mad shit to someone like me, and act like I’M the bad guy.
Honestly… it really does seem like the women who have the most problems with me, are the ones who seem to want me to believe something that isn’t true, but have no way of persuading me to do so. Maybe it’s a control issue.
You know what they say: “fool me once: shame on you; fool me twice: shame on me.”
I’m far beyond “twice” at this point. My heuristics are very established. My razors are sharp. It will take an elaborate ruse for anyone to ever fool me again… and it will require enough effort on their part, that i won’t feel ashamed if it happens. I will be impressed. But i really don’t think i have anything to worry about, because i can’t imagine why any woman would ever care whether or not i agree with her, regardless of who is right, or whether anyone is. It’s a lot of wasted energy on a totally irrelevant problem.
My first comment in this thread mentioned something about thinking there was something OP could do, to feel worth more than just a bottle of booze.
But in my case… most women would choose the booze.
I don’t drink. How do you think that makes me feel, that “most women,” would choose something i find to be not just worthless, but detrimental, instead of me?
The things i hate are more valuable to others, than the things that i am. I am worth less than the things i hate. It’s hysterical.
@Clevername. Hehe. You really think there’s nobody else at your level, huh? I think if you frequented other parts of the Internet, you might be surprised. I’m sure you’re not the only analytic philosopher out there (although I meant it the time I said I hadn’t met anyone like you before).
Anyway, what I was saying was to try to figure out where people are, and communicate with them accordingly. One will make mistakes sometimes, it’s inevitable, but it’s better than completely baffling somebody so that all they do is respond with angry, irrational retorts.
I haven’t seemed to have gotten in much trouble for my opinions on the Internet (except for when I’m joking and people take it seriously), but in real life, I’ve been involved in so many fruitless debates, that I’ve realized that sometimes, all I can do is let it go. The other party is going to keep on thinking the way they do, and nothing I can say will change that. If I want to save my sanity, my best option is to simply walk away. It frustrates me greatly, so I understand you completely. I have a tendency to think that my way of thinking is ‘correct,’ because I’ve put a lot of thought into it, and when others fail to see the ‘wider picture’ that I am presenting, and in the process, antagonize and blame me for other things, it can be infuriating. So, I’m going to do my best to stay out of such arguments from now on. I don’t need violence enacted towards me; I’m unable to defend myself in that regard.
“I expressed that your feedback is unwelcome on my thread and I explained why. ”
Your reason is incorrect. You don’t want to know that you’re wrong. You prefer an insulting stance of willful ignorance and blatant denial of reality, resulting in demonizing someone who doesn’t actually deserve it.
Typical.
I changed my mind. I don’t want to help you at all.
@beckyJ…..Actually that isn’t true….nobody tells her to actually do anything with her own body they just tell her what they are unwilling to do to her body on her behalf….Nobody ever told her she cannot cut her own breast off they just said they were unwilling to be a participant in the endeavor….which every doctor is within their rights to refuse to do something they find to be unethical….doctors can lose everything if they do that for her and during the surgery something goes wrong then what? she can sue that dog shit out that doctor because he performed surgery that wasn’t approved of….if she wasn’t diagnosed to have the mental condition that will allow for that surgery doctors aren’t obligated to do anything for her….
Nobody instigated anything about anything that was just the way the conversation headed due to the subject matter….nobody came out the blue and just said “ALL FEMINIST SUCK” ….no it was a conversation that headed into that subject matter…
Again her voice was never silenced at all….she could have said whatever she felt….Nobody called her bat shit crazy for wanting what she wanted I and a few others just thought it could have been rooted in various disorders which is why she may have desired that….nobody came right out and said “man you are bat shit nuts”…
If you read her post she never gave any specific reason she didn’t like them she just hated them for no reason… I mean if they were deformed or cancerous then we could understand but what she said was tantamount to a man saying he wants his penis cut off solely because he hates it…..
@beckyj In regards to the OP, it’s funny, I was thinking of something almost along these lines over the past few days. I might put up a post about it sometime.
I’ll look out for it. But prob not. This is too tiring, honestly…
@beckyj …. That’s unfair that you say that because you are the one who opened the door for this discussion to take place….nobody else brought up this issue you did….you called clever a few names which sparked the debate up again….all you had to do was either ignore him or said you disagree and move on….
I told him we don’t agree and his advice was unwelcome. I stated why. I really don’t understand why he continues to spam all over my thread. It’s obviously not helping anyone.
@pnl in more modern institutions, it is indeed called ‘gender studies’. And given that you have no credentials in this arena, you must admit you are unqualified to talk about what feminism means, since you haven’t studied it and appear to be going on heresay. Similarly, feminists who have not studied feminism are also ill equips to define it – however, most people calling themselves feminism have done some study in the area, formally or informally. Your comments lead me I believe you have not even got this far.
My credentials is gender studies… Probably about 30 credo points of an undergrad degre and 6 credit points of a post grad degree. It was never a major, just minor electives, but at least I can explain to you a few things…
Feminism is the concept that men and women should have equal rights. Its an unfortunate name because it was born out of the radical 70s movement which recognised that the world was so fundamentally male-centric, the only way to balance that bias out was to counter it in extreme polar opposites. Now, feminism has evolved beyond that radical movement.
Child support laws and alimony is not something I will ever benefit from, because I don’t want kids and am not married and even if I were, I tend to earn more than my boyfriends anyway, so it wouldn’t work in my favour. False DV claims are nothing compared to the actual DV cases going on. 1 woman dies per week in the country as a consequence of dv. Similarly, false rape claims are nothing compared to the number of rapes that go unpunished. Rape is exceptionally hard to prove by legal standards. It relies on the evidence that someone has been coerced. You can never really know if they’re coerced because you can never know what people are thinking. So a large amount of rape cases result in a verdict of not guilty, because there was not sufficient evidence. I’m not saying that false rape accusations don’t exist – they are just exceptionally hard to prove and I’m more concerned about the guilty people who are found innocent.
To say that my gender came into play to a judge and jury before my academic record or clean history is implying that my gender is the only thing matters. I disagree. Test scores don’t lie. My academic record was not a lie. And I like to believe the judge was intelligent enough to see those merits for what they were. If anyhing, I think it was more about my age than anything else. An 18 yr old has their life ahead of them. I’m sure a 40 yr old would have got a tougher sentence.
If it were my sister and not brother, my answer remains the same. All evidence must be looked at. That’s why we have judges, jurors, detectives and forensic analysts.
Ill state again, since you are clearly misled on the subject: feminism is about equality. And you are simply not qualified to define feminism, either here or anywhere else, because you have obviously done no reading on the subject.
up in the riggings Hoist the Colours! raise the anchor flogg mutineers.
I’ve got a 25 year bottle of Talisker’s I’m saving for a special occasion. I would have been prepared to share it with you. Then, we’d both be worth at least £200.
@beckyj…..If you want to be specific….Feminist studies and gender studies aren’t the same thing…. there is a big difference between “feminists studies” and “gender
studies.” The former concentrates on work relevant to women’s issues;
psychology of women, women’s history, literature, etc. The latter is
more generic and would, I assume, concern itself with both women and
with men. So, if what you’re interested in dealing with is the broad
issue of how gender affects people, and want to examine both women’s and
men’s experiences, you probably want to opt for “gender studies.” If
your primary focus is to be on girls and women, you probably want to
opt for “women’s studies.”
So to be technical you aren’t qualified to discuss it either and actually to be honest it doesn’t matter whether I have a degree or not….by your logic every person who claims to be of a particular party needs to have a degree in politics….every average joe who critiques sports needs a journalism degree…..every painter needs a degree in art…..you get my point…..
I never stated to be “qualified” to define feminism but that is another strawman tactic….you have deflected my one question again again and again as do all feminist when asked that same question…..
You do not need to be a rocket scientist to understand feminism nor do you need a degree to grasp the concept….
When was the equal rights amendment even passed? I mean since feminist make a big deal out of it?
If you think a judge saw your academic record before your race and gender you are very delusional….that is the first thing they see….I didn’t say what is the first thing they read….I said the first thing they see….had you been a black male or male period your sentence would have been more because males are held accountable more than females….if you think they aren’t then maybe you can explain why when Andrea Yates murdered all of her children, 72% of women polled stated that it was the ‘husband’s fault’ for leaving her alone at home with the children… not only is this just bizarre, it illustrates that women exist in an alternate mental dimension that has nothing to do with reality.
you can google that BTW
I would also like to know where you found that fact because upon googling a bit I found no such page stating that “1 woman dies per week in the country as a consequence of dv”
Also it doesn’t matter if you are affected because its not just you that the bias exist for …we are talking about women as a whole in the USA not just you and your experiences
I never said false DV and false rape charges happen more I said why is so easy for women to use at their disposal? A scorned woman can wreck any mans life up with a false rape charge …”brian banks” case and point….A woman can call the cops… cry and claim a man slapped her and have that man arrested and jailed like that….my question is why is it so easy? why is that a tool for them to use?
you keep using the term “equal rights” but you keep ignoring my question….why is it that …if that is really what they wanted? why do they not demand the same disadvantages as men as well….answer that …
Just because my comments don’t coincide your beliefs does not mean I haven’t done any reading on it….I see that you didn’t say that to Dawg when he agreed with you…you didn’t question if he studied it or knew about it in depth…nope you accepted his comment because it fell in line with your views….
Most modern institutions only offer ‘gender studies’. Within gender studies, you will learn about feminism, and transgender issues, and male identities, and LGB issues. So yeah, having a background in gender studies DOES quantify my knowledge of feminism. I’m really curious as to where your definition of feminism comes from, as it’s not something I’ve ever encountered in a legitamite accademic text.
‘Womens studies’ was more commonly offered in the 70s, and then that discipline evolved into gender studies, as it became evident that gender and sexuality is infinitely diverse, not just about man/woman gay/straight dichotomies. Maybe ‘womens’ studies’ still exists, as a relic from the 70s, but rarely.
I never said everyone had to have a degree. I said they needed to have done some legitamite reading on an ideology before slandering it. And here’s a tip – internet is NOT a legitimate source! Same goes with politics – you can follow whatever party you like, but one would hope you have made an effort to understand what that party is representing, and to use legitimate sources to find out… not just believe the propagando on the news. (Admittely this is a lot harder to do in politics..)
The statistic of 1 woman dying per week as consequence of DV is not in the USA, its an australian statistic. American statistics are hideosly unreliable for rape/DV/sexual harrassment because incidences of reporting are phenomenally low compared to crimes committed. It might take a bit of digging for me to find the source, but if I do I’ll pop it through to you. I think it was a study done by the police force in order to improve internal practices. And I want to re-instate – internet is NOT a reliable source for research! I know you’re googling away, and you’re wasting your time.
I answered all of your questions with regard to myself because YOU asked ‘HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF….” “WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF…” I thought you wanted me to asnwer with my personal opinion. Anyway, thats all I can give, because I do not propose to speak for all women, I’m sure many of them would disagree with me, but then you should go ask them, and not base your entire experience on the answers of ONE woman.
” why is so easy for women to use at their disposal? A scorned woman can wreck any mans life up with a false rape charge …â€brian banks†case and point….A woman can call the cops… cry and claim a man slapped her and have that man arrested and jailed like that….my question is why is it so easy? why is that a tool for them to use?” – there is absolutely no evidence to support these statements. You’re imagining that scenario. In truth, as I previously discussed, it is nigh impossible to get a rape conviction, and often in DV cases, it’s hard to determine who the victim is, because if a woman fights back and the man is also a bit banged up, it’s hard to know. Ive seen a few reports of woman who go to the police, but their husbands beat them to it, and accused the woman (victim) of DV, so the victim got arrested! The lesson these women learned is that its in their best interest to not fight back… take the punches as ‘evidence’.
“why do they not demand the same disadvantages as men as well….answer that …” duh… because women already have MORE disadvantages than men.
I don’t need to question Dawg’s education in this arena. The fact that he made reference to the early feminist movement, that he recognised the imbalance of the status quo which resulted in early feminism being heavily weighted towards women, already shows that he has legitamite knowledge of the movement. It was not my opinion he was agreeing with… it was substantiated, credible knowledge. I’m not saying that knowledge HAS to come from uni or school or whatever. It just has to come from a source more credible than someone with an internet blog.
I think complaints of violence are taken more seriously when women make them because domestic violence is fairly common. Although, it’s difficult to believe there are some men that get beaten up by women too but that’s very rare. If you’re a man who runs to the police like a little cry baby about getting beaten up by a woman then you deserve to get slapped.
When it is one’s relatives causing the domestic abuse then the police are usually lax to get involved, especially if the victim is of legal age. Also, I’ve heard of a case where a woman reported abuse from a boyfriend or spouse and the police left her to sit in a jail cell all night and did not address the problem whatsoever. (This happened in my country, believe it or not.) It’s really not as easy to convict someone as one might suppose.
There was a case, also in my country, where a man in his forties, over 6′ tall, burly physique, was accused of raping a 12-year-old disabled child. However, in the end he was proven innocent. The jury decided that there was insufficient evidence to show that he had harmed the girl (I believe it was his stepdaughter). Perhaps he was guilty, perhaps not. In my country, at least, no one is guilty until proven so, and there must be both a ‘mens rea’ and ‘actus reis’ in order to proceed to a conviction.
My friend was a juror in a similar case – a man was up for raping his daughter, and it was like the third time it had gone to trail, and yeah, it got thrown out due to insufficient evidence. He said as a juror it was heartbreaking because it went from 11 jurors leaning towards a guilty verdict, and one by when, when they realised how difficult a guilty verdict was to achieve, they all gave up and voted not guilty because they didn’t want to be stuck in court too long… he said it was a really depressing experience.
*’actus reus’
@Duke….you underestimate women….furthermore that very attitude is probably the attitude of many officials in power to actually do something about it…. you assume women can’t beat up men….which is true….until you realize nobody ever said women use their hands to beat up men….baseball bats, knives, razors, actually anything can be used to assault a man….and in addition to that….in your POV what is a man supposed to do when a woman hits hit? ….let me guess “take it like a man huh?”….what if the hitting is repetitive? let me guess “he should leave huh?” but see that’s another thing that irks me about the very nature of feminism….no feminist anywhere will say that women shouldn’t put their hands on men…no instead they say all the responsibility for self control falls on the man…..you won’t hear a feminist say humans shouldn’t hit humans …no instead you’ll hear men shouldn’t hit women regardless of the circumstances….which IMO is bullshit….any woman that wants to hit a man as if she were a man needs to be hit like the man she was imitating….
Am I saying men should women not at all….but to say that men who call the police on women are crybabies and deserved to get slapped is basically saying its okay for women to hit men….and nobody sees the problem with this?
@PNL I agree that DV occurs against men also and that is wrong too. It is NEVER ok to physically assualt your partner. However, DV is largely inflicted against women so obviously theres more dialougue about that. The only exception is Denmark (I think) where DV against men is actually more common than against women.
Also worth noting is that among the jury were mothers of young children, and yet, they were still in favour of the defendant rather than the plaintiff (the child).
@Beckyj
I totally agree with you. Feminism is all about equality. Rape is about power. All woman are not deceiving and “weaker” than men. And if someone doesn’t agree then it’s fine.
It’s so simple. It’s frustrating when people cant get simple concepts, but like you said It’s fine.
@beckyj – I’m just hoping the OP didn’t go through the comments on her thread. Transsexualism is still widely misunderstood, and I highly doubt she wanted to hear that she has a “mental illness,” even though it has been declassified as a mental disorder in the American Psychiatric Association.
The list of things to be outraged at on that thread besides the trans=mental illness thing is just too long to list… I hope she read one or two of the earlier slightly softer comments, thought ‘fuck this’ and left and never came back to read the rest.
@insidious…what was declassified as a mental defect? certainly you’re not referring to gender dyphoria because that is still on the books….in fact that is the only way she would have been able to get what she wanted…she had to be diagnosed with that disorder in order to get her breast removed…
@beckyj ….. http:// www. youtube. com /user/WomanAgainstFeminism/videos
Upon some googling I stumbled upon this channel on YT… since I am a male it may seem as if I am just biased…well….maybe hearing several females say the same thing as I have will make you understand what I have been trying to say this whole time
@Pain – Goddammit! Okay.. I posted two replies to you, but they’re awaiting moderation.
Let’s try this again: whoneedsfeminism. tumblr. com
This better work. :p
@insidious ….I took the time to read through a few pages and while I acknowledge some of them have valid points others were just IMO bullshit…also…I noticed how not a single post I read on that tumblr said anything they want that would be negative….like you didn’t see one post saying I need feminism because I want equal sentencing laws for crime or something to that effect….
also I stumbled upon an interesting counter page to that one…. if you care to view it…
http: //womenagainstfeminism. tumblr. com/
@PNL you’re niave to think that I would change my mind on an ideological stance simply because it comes from a woman rather than a man: the content remains the same and it is the contecnt I disagree with. I read a little of this blog and it very much sounds like you: written by a laymen, with no academic knowledge of what feminism is, and no background in sociology or anthropology. This blog relies on the statement ‘Equal rights exist, right now’. That statement is simply untrue. If you believe the law overcompensates in favour of women, it is probably because the law itself has also acknowledged that statement is untrue. The LAW! Our entire overarching belief system recognises the world is not equal. So forgive me if I don’t give much credibility to and unsubstantiated blog.
“There comes a point when you realise that human worth IS quantifyable, but only with respect to how OTHERS judge that worth. There is no objective measure of worth (because the omnipotent god is unlikely to exist) and so, it’s true, the only thing that matters is how others percieve your worth.” – beckyj
Hi beckyj. Well, “worth” – or rather, self-worth – should ideally come from within… but unfortunately it seems society (other people) will always try to dictate otherwise, as demonstrated by the majority of the comments here. It’s ironic that those proving your words to be true fail to notice it themselves…
Glad someone else saw the irony!
self worth is weird… it’s meant to come from within… but even that must get validated by external forces… it’s a chicken and egg thing.
Some of you are obviously determined to cling to your false interpretations of reality. This is not just a “feminism” problem. It goes beyond gender issues.
You’re trying to insist that reality is wrong and your propaganda is real, but it’s not going to fly with those of us who know better. I’ve already seen enough of your propaganda, and how it differs from actual reality!
What’s ironic, really ironic, is how this thread started out with:
A) my confirmation and agreement that efforts are made to quantify human worth; i didn’t say it was right or wrong, i just shared that such information exists…
B) i attempted to express that i though ms. J was most likely worth more than a bottle of booze (her own quantification, not mine), and that there was probably something she could actively DO, to improve how she felt about her seemingly low self-worth.
What do i get? DEMONIZED!
Why? BECAUSE I SPEAK THE TRUTH.
So many of you are so FUCKING STUPID, that i can’t justify viewing you as having any discernible worth as human beings. Some of you only demand to be valued based solely on your possession of a vagina, which goes directly against (!) what you claim feminism is about, and aligns perfectly (!) with the contrary statements we who have made them, have made.
Some of you are repeatedly proving that i am right, that Pain is right, and yet you fail to see it, BECAUSE YOU DON’T WANT TO UNDERSTAND. You don’t want to see it, you only want to insist that you are correct, and immediately dismiss any information to the contrary, and immediately dismiss any male opinion as a MALE opinion, rather than setting aside gender differences for long enough to perceive the actual non-biased truth.
I’m sorry your little vag cult isn’t exactly what you were lead to believe… but that’s not my fault, and it never will be.
You all seem like just a bunch of miserable cunts who want to find a man to hate, so you can rally against an enemy, because you just want something to complain about. Wake the fuck up and smell the reality you’re creating for not just yourselves, but everyone you impact. It’s not my fault that your life isn’t a disney fairytale, nor is it my fault you expect it to be.
In case some of you buched-panties-weilders hadn’t realized, no one here has attempted to tell anyone they have low worth, except for the females trying to claim anyone who disagrees with them is automatically a misogynist devil. What a bunch of fucking bullshit.
It’s no wonder why some of you end up here; you are mentally incompetent and incapable of forming reasonable and rational expectations of the world and your interactions within it… and i think i should at least partly attribute that to the crime committed by those who lead you astray, into a fallacious mindset called “feminism.”
Whoah, dude, chill. I told you in my first comment: “You and I ain’t ever gonna agree.” That’s cool with me. I accept that. Why can’t you do the same? What is your obsession with vaginas? Why do you keep bringing up vaginas? Not a single person has brought up the issue of their vagina (I actually find such speak a little unsavoury, I consider my vagina a bit too personal to be discussing on a suicie blog), but you’re like OBSESSED with vaginas, what’s up with that?
I’ve asked you several times to get off my thread because you’re being rude and disrespectful of others opinions. And now, you are calling people on this blog ‘mentally incompetant’ and ‘fucking stupid’ – you have resorted to name calling and this is quite hateful. You can’t expect to belittle people until they feel bullied into agreeing with you. If you continue on this line I’ll just start deleting your comments.
Have a great day 🙂
@clevername Calm down, dude. You shouldn’t let the words of random strangers on the Internet affect you so much. 😉
People only become defensive and start preaching their ‘values’ when they feel they are being threatened. Other than that, I don’t think people go out of their way to attack others, unless they have that kind of personality. I doubt that most women are worthy of such dislike. All you gotta do is stay out of their way, man. Do I think that women can act irrationally? Yes. Do I act irrationally sometimes? Yes. Do men act irrationally as well? Yes.
The problem isn’t women. The problem might be what they were taught and what they expect. I honestly have no idea what that is, myself, but then again a person couldn’t really use me as an example for all women, because I’m a bit outside the norm. (Not trying to sound elitist; I know this from my life’s experiences.)
Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you shouldn’t be such a misanthropist. (:
That reminds me of, “Reverting to name-calling suggests that you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid.” – Spock
Even though I’m not a big Star Trek fan, I like that quote. 🙂
I feel bad that I spent so much time here defending my gender instead of responding to other posters. I gotta roll, I have a date. In light of this conversation, I’d love to bounce some ideas off him.
Take care of each other.
x
@beckyj Hope it goes well!
You’re not defending your gender, you’re defending your delusion, while demonizing a target you’ve chosen to represent the males you feel spiteful toward.
I don’t understand why anyone is upset with me if they think my opinion is invalid. And i don’t understand why anyone would resort to name-calling and creating unnecessary conflict, when all i originally intended to do here was offer affirmation of the OP’s observation that people tend to attempt to quantify human worth, and then suggest that she could probably take some sort of action to increase her apparently dismal feelings of low-worth.
But no, we’re never going to be cool, because you want to advance your agenda that females should be granted an elevated sense of entitlement, just for being born female, while demanding respect which they have not earned, and refuse to sacrifice for. It’s irrational and childish, and the fact that any of you get upset about confronting that reality, to the point where you attempt to shield yourself from it through utter denial and insistence to the contrary, just proves my point.
And when i respond to your abusive allegations and refusal to consider anything other than your own prejudiced views, you then accuse me of “bullying?” What a *****. People like you are why some men just want to watch the world burn. People like you are why feminism gets a bad rep in the first place. You act like a 10x retaliation is “fair and balanced,” and then freak out when anyone disagrees.
No wonder you feel the need to hide your true self behind masks. You know the real you is completely intolerable, and you can’t get what you want unless you behave in ways that manipulate people into doing favors and allowing you to access beneficial resources and circumstances. Being female sure helps with that particular approach.
You’ll never have my respect, since when i offered it, you snatched it out of my hand and smashed it on the ground, proving you don’t value it at all.
I think i would choose a cheap bottle of liquor over you, and i don’t even drink. But it’s up to you to decide whether you’re worth anything, regardless of whatever i think. But if your whole intention was “oh, poor me, i’m so content to feel so worthless and wallow in my own self pity, despite having access to resources to create solutions…” then wtf are you crying about? Do you just like to cause problems?
If you go around disregarding people’s worth just because they don’t want to go along with your ridiculous fantasies, don’t expect them to “empathize,” when you complain about your own self-worth.
i dont come to SP often, but when i do, i expect a healthy clevername essay. 😛 these posts always end up taking a life of their own and exploring such random tangents…its expected actually. carry on y’all
@OP
this post…right on point..time just slips by as i look at my life in shambles..nothing left to do but drink and feel worth less than the 40 of vodka i just drank.. i wish i could tell you we’re worth more than a belly full of alcohol or a good fuck..but i feel nothing to be able to assure you of that.. good luck my friend.. the only way to stop time is to extract yourself from its dimension..my method? a gun i should b getting my hands on within the next two months..
Tick tock a clock
sorry din’t red it to long
@CN It’s no shock that you ended up on this site either. You are the one who disregards people’s opinions/ideas just because they counteract yours. It seems like you utterly adore the sound of your own voice – that playing a big role in why you are here. If you dislike and belittle someone’s opinion contrary to yours, eventually you will be pushed over the edge. I’m betting you’re consistently opposed, demeaned, and attacked with derogatory labels, which makes you angry/hateful towards the world, or something of those sorts – But can you blame them? If you show zero interest in anyone else’s perspective, why should they show any in yours? If you blatantly get annoyed when they disagree with you – how could you possibly expect anyone to respect or even listen to you? If you claim that everything you say is “the truth” and impose yourself on people until they agree with you, surely you should be open to criticism? If I acted that arrogant, self righteous, and close-minded, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone got defensive.
And on it rages.
Feminism … rightly or wrongly in it’s methodology … is necessary … and fr the foreseeable future, will remain a force. Are there aspects that are overboard, unfair, overreaching and sometimes downright silly?
YES
But there is a clear inequity in the treatment of women in the most liberal western countries despite how progressive they’ve been narrowing the gap. To say that women aren’t embracing the negatives is also disingenuous … recently they won the capability to assume direct combat roles in the US military … something the Israelis have been doing for decades. And US women get no “advantage” to do so … they must pass the same physical standards and meet the same training objectives as men – pure equality – for the honor of catching bullets … but not much “disadvantage” there i guess 😛
But this whole feminism , discrimination, women’s rights, equality and all CAN and SHOULD be discussed rationally and civilly. I “get” that everyone has a difference of opinion and that personalities class at times … but there are a whole bunch of good and intelligent people on here who need take a step back and remember that they ARE good and intelligent and rise above the barbs and jabs and preconceptions … prove it with intellect, not insults.
Oh – and if i recall there was some reference to “judgement” … don’t kid yourselves – everyone is judgmental … it’s a necessity no matter what the man-made bible suggests … we all need to use judgement to make good decisions in life … we need judgement like we need oxygen or we don’t survive.
zen dawg
…personalities *CLASH at times …
People here are geniuses. I’d follow their advice blindly because they use big words and sound really smart. The world, feminism, religion and cats have conspired against them all, preventing them from actually achieving anything.
I don’t speak much IRL. I don’t particularly like the “sound” of my own voice. Besides, no one is listening anyway. They’re all pretending to listen, while really just waiting for their chance to attempt to impose their opinions, which are not formed with correctness as a priority. People who base their opinions on fallacies and fantasies, do not have valid opinions. Unless, of course, you’re talking about writing a work of fiction or some sort of entertainment product; then fantasy is valid.
All of this was started by my expression that wanting to chop off parts of yourself is bizarre and indicative of a mental health issue.
Somehow that became “i’m trying to control what women do with their bodies,” which WAS NOT THE CASE!
Some feminists chose to target and attempt to publicly shame me, for something I NEVER ACTUALLY DID. Suddenly i’m a misogynist bigot, because some stupid ***** wants to act like i’m trying to control someone, when really, i’m attempting to explain why wanting to chop off parts of one’s own body is bizarre and indicative of mental health issues, NOT JUST FOR WOMEN.
THIS IS TYPICAL FEMINIST BEHAVIOR!
AND YOU’RE STILL TRYING TO JUSTIFY YOUR OWN MISDEEDS!!!
You can claim it’s all about promoting females to the level of equality, but it’s really not, and it’s obvious to SOME of us.
I have zero issues with raising the bar where it sags… but i think it’s highly ridiculous that any woman thinks she has zero female advantages, and it’s disgusting to watch them completely disregard all of them, while demanding more special consideration, and calling that “for equality.”
The same things you people are doing here and now, are the reasons that have preceded your own solidification of the very same views you claim not to want anyone to have. YOU AND YOUR KIND HAVE CREATED THEM THROUGH YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR! Don’t expect me to ignore the way “you people” do things, and then demand that i respect it! It’s disrespectful, on a human level! You’re all completely deluded and taking all the advantages you DO have, for granted! That’s not my fault at all!
Some people have natural advantages! That doesn’t mean anyone’s “oppressing” you! Humans have preferences! That doesn’t mean anyone’s “oppressing” you!
Some of what you all are demanding, would require taking away the right to choose, from other humans. That’s not right. You can’t say that taking away someone else’s rights just so that you can have them instead, is “fair.” Unless, of course, you want to be blatantly incorrect.
The truth is that i get attacked because i make myself an easy target by attempting honesty and transparency, and people dislike the truths i attempt to reveal, but blame me as if i’ve created them, rather than appreciating being made aware of a problem, so that it can be fixed. But women don’t want to fix anything; they want to pretend.
The bottom line is that i’m not the heinous bastard you “feminists” are trying to make me seem… but you’re /determined/ to make an example out of /someone/, and so you latch on to anyone who might be “fixable” to be molded into that role, to serve your agenda.
It seems like that’s what the entire agenda amounts to: try to fabricate evidence to attempt to falsely justify all of this.
It’s all ‘theater’ to you. It’s all about making things look whatever way benefits you, even if it’s entirely contrived… because that’s how women operate. I’ve seen it first hand. i’ve been subjected to it throughout my life. i KNOW this is what is happening, there is no question, not a single doubt in my mind, this is how it works. It’s just that some of you actually believe the lies you are shown as propaganda to convince you to act in certain ways. Some of you are simply misguided… but some of you are fucking evil and cruel… and amidst the theater, it’s hard to know which is what, and so i have to err on the side of caution and assume that all of you are cruel and evil, until i have enough personal evidence to the contrary, on a case-by-case, person-by-person basis, to expose myself to the potential for damage, by offering a semblance of trust.
But no, the default is never going to be trust or respect. I respect your capacity for deception, so i scrutinize everything you say or show.
Damn son … i hate to say it … but that rant makes you sound like Rush Limbaugh
bunker bound dawg
@clevername So men as a whole are truthful and pure of heart and have to watch out for all the Little Red Riding Hoods of the world (who is really a wolf dressed up like a woman), eh?
I get you, you’ve had bad experiences with sociopathic individuals. Not every woman is like that, and men are just as capable of deception. How else do you think people become CEOs and reach other positions of power. By being ruthless.
Honestly for me life would have been much easier if I were male, considering the way I act and think. So no, my feminity is not an advantage and is instead a weakness. I like my female body, I suppose, but I would have been much better off as a dude. (But no, I’m not transgender. I’m female, and that’s that.)
Is it just me or does this bring to mind certain religious debates. Hmm…
I tend to counsel most women to be wary of all men … as it has been my experience (from the perspective of a man, mind you) that most men are douchbags … conversely – i’ve met and had relations with a few of the women CN describes … i think there is a very healthy segment of society of men AND women that are selfish douchebags that would be better used for fertilizer.
Sigmund dawg
When it gets to this level people need to just agree to disagree…..some people just can’t be convinced no matter what evidence you bring to light…..I understand you are annoyed clevername but once insults come into the conversation people automatically stop listening …..even thought that’s probably not true because they weren’t listening in the first place….
@beckyj…. I’m going to keep this nice and short because with one statement you proved everything I’ve been saying thus far
“why do they not demand the same disadvantages as men as well….answer that … duh… because women already have MORE disadvantages than men.”
Umm I never said they didn’t….I said they call feminism equality but they only want the advantages men have….however they leave the disadvantages right where they are….the advantages they want counter the disadvantages …so now they have the advantages they already have ….in addition to the advantages afforded to them by way of feminism (not referring to the typical outer advantages) so if they wanted EQUALITY then why not demand the disadvantages as well? in which you basically say because they don’t want them…..aka they want superiority…not a hard concept to grasp you know
Furthermore…. you chose which source of info I provided to attack…that blog was never for you it was for insidious because she recommended a tumblr page for me….but I see you left the video channel on youtube comment unanswered because theres nothing you could say about it since you claim I need a “understanding” (which a 12 year old can understand feminism) those women on that channel many of them are above and beyond your requirements for knowing about feminism and they STILL refute it…..
I hope you have a good time on your date….but I bet you probably think your date should hold open doors for you and pay for that date too…and I bet if he didn’t you’d probably consider him rude and never date him again….but remember equality….so with equality chivalry is dead….
Also you say the internet is not a credible source for research yet you never asked dawg nor ahannah123 or insidious or anybody that agreed with you where they got their info on feminism….now I may not be knowledgeable about all the intricate details like you but I do know the concept of it….like I said it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that…..and you assume I did my research through the internet….never asked me where I got my info from…
If feminism was about equality why the hell is it named feminism…why isn’t it named humanism….or equalitism ….and for feminist to make such a big deal out of something you’d think they fight to get the equal rights amendment passed but they don’t even care about legislation they only care about the advantages
also….you said “your definition of feminism” well I’d like to know what that is…because I never defined it I just told you the problems I have with it
i cant read all these comments, men against women. just chiming in my opinion, lol. i thinkthere should be a 1000 year moratorium or break from sex. like remove thee sex organs and learn to treat each other equally. it seems to really pit us against each other. i can see whats wrong with each. men have taken control and have programmed everyone into this breeder mentality, f! f! F! which has baiscally become a free for all for men. thats not the way women operate, they need that emotional connection but then the women are programmed into, its ok for women to act like men and go out and have sex with and however often they want. ya don want that. the whole sex thing is just repulsive. arent there enough people for now? the bickering me against you needs to stop, lets work together. i know i dont want any man friends cause they have been conditioned that its ok to have dirty thoughts, i dont want to be his friend cause it grosses me out if hes thinking about me like that, get your mind out of the gutter. its insulting. its like saying, you want to tear me in two, then leave alone to live with it. thats hurtful and not loving, its fn. look at showtime, the sex machine is on its last wheels, that nasty crap show, masters of sex, cant we please move past all the fn and get onto bigger and higher things and ideas? birth is one of the most disturbing and disgusting things, yet its promoted as this great thing when in reality, it tears the sheet out of a woman. there, i said it. imagine how a woman feels after birth. you aint got nothing on that men, she feels like shit! terrible. there should be adnew way to create beings. but how can we even get to this level if were stuck on the same old, same ole? women need to be respected for being willong to do that to their bodies, THEN live with ittche rest of their lives. again, the whole things is disgusting. sorry, asexual, lol 🙂
@sgiksw…. I think you’d like this video….
http: // www. youtube. com/ watch?v=FJeuK1Pl2bQ
childbirth vs kicked in the balls….
I’m sorry, I just saw this last post about childbirth vs. Kicked in the balls…we had a convo about this at my work…there was a guy who’s argument was childbirth is better than bein kicked in the balls, bc women try over and over to have kids, but u don’t see guys wanting to get kicked in the balls…it jus made me laugh…Ok like I said I’m sorry lol
@zebragirl lol well he has a point
interesting arguement. still, women are physically changed forever. the whole thing, disgusts me. lets just desex everyone. lol. both are painful. the part about pain being subjective too, i can see that, some people may havedhigner tolerances for pain, others like myself are overly sensitive. im not really sure im from the this planet, ha! you humans. you do get a kid out of it. so pricey though.
Lol hey idk I’m not in this convo…I’ve read the posts and frankly…it scares me lol…but I saw that video post and had to add that…I could go into my argument on the alternative to his reasoning, but I am not giving anyone more fuel to send this post into 200+ comments lol…it’s already gone on for a while. I do have to say his reasoning made me laugh…but that is jus me…I don’t let much get under my skin…even if I disagree, I can still find the humor in things if it’s there and is meant to be funny, and keep my comments to myself to save an argument…now that’s not to say I wouldn’t get offended, but if at all possible I try and keep the peace…Ima lover, not a fighter. 🙂
Childbirth is beautiful…it’s bringing a new life into the world. Sex is also not disgusting. I have a dirty mind and I enjoy talking about it bc it’s fun. Now again this is my viewpt, I understand u might not feel the same, but life would be so boring without sex and a lil dirty humor…now again that’s just me…I do NOT want to start things again, but the reason I believe he made the argument was ball kicking is for pain for pain sake. Childbirth is meant to allow women to do what they were meant to do. I for one wish I could have kids. I’ve had 5 miscarriages. Maybe someday I will be able to, but if not, then ok
I came to terms with that a long time ago. I’d jus be happy having fun trying…I’m jus looking at this purely on free spirit thinking…bc that’s what I am. I find humor in everything I can…I don’t take a lot too seriously, and I am always wanting to have fun. With whatever comes my way.
(On the other thread) All I’ve tried to do is explain to CN that feminism is not a man-hating organization, and is the biggest misconception – but due to his bad experiences with few so-called “feminists” that misled him, he’s completely shunned every aspect of it. That’s his choice, and I’ll leave it at that.
Pain is right – no point in this anymore, it’s hijacked yet another thread. Let’s ‘let bygones be bygones.’ Hopefully it doesn’t continue escalating lol
Take care all
@insidious:
but your explanation isn’t true. You would prefer that it was, but it isn’t. You and your cohorts can continue insisting it’s true, but that’s not going to change reality.
Feminism is the antithesis to “masculinism.” It’s totally confounding that you can’t see it. It’s axiomatic. It says what it is, right there in the name itself! Feminism works to oppose masculinism, as if promoting the agenda that the natural male ways are inherently wrong. Feminism is waging a gender war where there doesn’t need to be one, while insisting that their opposed gender be demonized and diminished. As if you want the world to operate exclusively according to the preferences of only women, just because you Are a woman, without any consideration of whether you are correct or not, but only in the notion that you have been convinced to go along with a conspiracy which has indoctrinated you to believe that the world should operate with a clear pro-female bias (which it already does, in many obviously evidenced ways!), rather than the so-called “equality” your much maligned group purports to endorse.
Feminism is literally anti-male. And if you say it isn’t, it’s the same thing as saying that the KKK is all about achieving “racial equality” through the advancement and protection of the white race, because we would otherwise be exploited by the other races, if we didn’t band together and demand fair treatment.
I don’t agree that the KKK wants equality at all, but they are clearly pro-white. It’s the same with feminism. They are clearly pro-female, but their own actions show that they are about achieving an elevated status above their opponents, rather than achieving any semblance of “equality,” while they hypocritically and vehemently exclaim that their veiled quest for superiority “is equality.”
It’s infuriating that so few of you see it for what it is. And that is my main problem here. Feminists repeatedly insist on attributing their problems to “men being men,” and therefore falsely justifying their often unnecessarily extreme counter-measures. You can’t say “men are the problem,” and then turn around and scream about being generalized for being a feminist. When i say “feminists,” i’m talking about a specific group of women, not all of them. When feminists talk about “misogynists and bigots,” what they really mean is: “all men who disagree with my declaration of superiority and elevated sense of undeserved entitlement.”
The only way for a feminist to respect a male, is for that male to submit to the unjustified requirement of holding any woman in higher regard than other humans (ie: men), just because they are female, and not because they have displayed any special skill or heroic sacrifice. You all (feminists) want special treatment just for being female, while demanding that everyone define this as “equality,” which it isn’t. You’re attempting to obscure the true nature of your own agenda, via “lexical dissonance,” and confusing everyone by using words to mean something they are not intended to mean.
I find it absurd that i am expected to cow-tow to such bizarre practices, and incredibly insulting, offensive, and demeaning, that you expect me to agree with your obviously malicious misuse of the language, in order to advance your female-superiority agenda.
What’s worse is that i’m sick of being demonized just for pointing out the problem: it’s your language! If i went around preaching “white-ism,” what the fuck do you think would happen? People would think i only like white people, and that i think less of anyone else. The same thing happens when you go around calling yourself “feminists,” and the insisting that “feminism doesn’t mean female bias” doesn’t work as a valid excuse.
There doesn’t even need to be a gender war in the first place… but since so many of you insist on continuing to wage it, perhaps you should learn to target men who are actually willing and able to oppress and repress you, instead of some guy on the internet who has been mistreated by cruel, crazy, spiteful, vindictive, evil bitches, his entire life.
Despite my bad experiences (with far more than “a few so-called feminists”), i have never shunned the notion that females and males should be treated equally as human beings.
If you ask me who should have more rights, i’ll say neither, or both. If you ask me whether a male or female should be paid more to do the same job to the same degree of performance, i’ll say “no.” Of course women deserve to be compensated for their efforts when their skills are developed. Of course women should be entitled to an opinion just like any other human. Why does there even need to be any question? It doesn’t make sense! The problem is that i don’t think idiots or crazy people should be allowed to vote, and “feminists” tend to act like they believe things that aren’t actually evidenced in reality, quite similarly to various followers of any theistic religion. Voting should require people to pass some sort of test first, not just be granted just because they’re able to locate the booth. If we let idiots vote, we’ll end up with all kinds of problems! Oh, wait… that already happened, and now the country is ruined.
I agree, Pain is right. I agree with everything he posted, especially the part about “no one was listening to begin with.” Feminists aren’t listening, they’re just shouting their agenda and attacking any easy target who they can make seem like an enemy, instead of going after the sources of the real problems.
This whole thing is just ridiculous. “Feminists” latched onto the idea that somehow my objection to the notion that a woman disliked her body so much that she wanted to mutilate it, somehow means that i hate women! It’s quite the contrary! And then, somehow, having an opinion that didn’t match the radical feminists, made me a bigot. That’s strange. Throughout all this, “you people” continue to reinforce exactly the same negative interpretations your kind have caused me to form and forced me to accept: you are irrational, and do not understand the reasoning and logic behind your own motivations, nor do you understand why you are wrong to target me as your scapegoat. Fighting with me isn’t going to convince anyone that you aren’t what you don’t like that you made me think you are. You’re not going to convince anyone with a brain that i’m wrong, by doing exactly what i’ve claimed you are doing… and yet, you act as though continuing to do exactly that, is somehow the correct response… because you are naturally malicious, spiteful and vindictive, and hate any man who doesn’t say or do what you want, and what you want is often unreasonable. It’s not “just a few” of you.
Remember, i’m not the one who waged a gender war. I was simply defending myself from an unprovoked and undeserved attack, which yet another angry feminist chose to attempt to impose upon me, despite the fact that i was initially civil about expressing my opinion.
If you push a bunch of unreasonable and irrational affronts in my face, i’m going to get pissed off. Do you not know to expect that? Or is that exactly what you were hoping to accomplish in the first place? It really does seem like some of you just want to cause problems and ruin the lives of any man who doesn’t do exactly what you want, or isn’t born with the features you value and prefer.
But like i’ve said many times in other “debates”: there’s no use trying to explain anything to someone who has already decided not to understand. Feminists have already decided not to understand where/why/how they are wrong. If we’re not with you, you’re against us… even if we’re not necessarily against you. You just want a fight. That’s something most typically vindictive, jaded women, often do.
This whole thing is stupid, and i feel compelled to say some things i probably shouldn’t say, so you should appreciate my restraint in that regard.
@clevername It seemed quite obvious to me that some people wanted a fight (I don’t mean you).
In all honesty I have no idea what feminism is and I don’t really care. Sorry. I do greatly appreciate the Suffragettes and everything they did to gain rights for women – I mean, not to long ago, women couldn’t even attend university. It was bad. In India, and countries in the Middle East, women are still struggling, and I think it’s horrific. I would like to do everything possible to help these women.
Equality for all. For centuries women were not held in very high regard. They were supposed to be caretakers of the home or stay in their embroidery and gossip circles. Women who wanted to read and learn were frowned upon, and some were demonized for being a witch. If I had lived in earlier times, I would have already been killed for being a witch. They would never have put up with a strong independent woman like me, who has little to no interest in having a family or any of that. I don’t like doing what is expected, I don’t like following rules. However, I’ve never had a problem with either gender (or the ones in between). They’re all necessary. I love men, OK? I love women too. I love people, people are great. 🙂
It’d be a lonely life if nobody was around.
Yeah there are a lot of morons in the world and dealing with them on a daily basis can be difficult, but I’m not going to judge all of humanity based on the people I don’t get along with. Everyone has a light and dark side. Some are more neutral than others, perhaps. The key is learning what people expect. If it’s unreasonable, say so, if it seems rational and doesn’t inconvenience oneself, there shouldn’t be a problem. Idk.
– 100th comment –
I know all about women’s suffrage because I read the Racing Post (Britain’s only credible newspaper) which published an article on Emily Davison. She died by running in front of King George V’s horse in the 1913 Epsom Derby. She was trampled under the horse and her dead body was dragged across the line. The race was ruined and the horse was traumatised for life. That’s what women’s suffrage is about, in a nutshell.
@duke: lol.
I had heard of that one. Obviously her intention was not to be killed by a horse.
Anyway, this stuff is stupid. You men should do what you want as long as you aren’t taking rights away from women. Who cares about your opinions otherwise. This is just one Internet site.
Peace.
I get all my information from the RP. It’s a reliable source.
I don’t think discrimination or positive discrimination based on a persons gender is at the forefront of issues affecting the UK which is generally fair.
Men and women face different challenges in life and which need to be represented.
Nor is it an issue in my country. Exactly, I concur. In civilized first-world countries, no gender has any more advantages than another except in certain fields. Speaking of our particular Interweb demographic, we all ended up on a suicide site, so really, nobody is better than anyone else. In the end, we’re all screwed.