I hear all these people who talk about God’s plan for people, and how everything that happens is by “His” will. Personally I don’t really believe in that, for a couple reasons.
#1 If everything really is all part of a plan, then there would never be any cause for worry about consequences. This site is full of people who think that suicide is an acceptable way to end your life (I’m included in that category) but most of society especially religious nuts talk about how its such a sin. But if you do end up killing yourself, isn’t that part of the plan too? So wouldn’t that mean its actually ok?
#2 If you do have an eternal soul which your life here determines where you will end up, Heaven or Hell, does that make a lot of sense? Really think about it. If your soul is eternal, but the average life span of humans is somewhere between 70 and 80 years, isn’t that like making the decision for your soul in about .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 cubed to the nth degree of a nanosecond? Times infinity? That seems like a bullshit deal to me.
There are quite a few more examples I could cite but I’m feeling pretty lazy and don’t want to type anymore, so I’d like to hear other peoples opinions on how you’d justify or deny some higher power ruling your life.
One last thing though, I do tend to believe that people fall into a couple categories. The first being the people where things just seem to go right for them, no matter what they do, I think these people probably make up about 1% of the population, and 98% of people things either go good or bad, but they have to work at it. The last 1% would be the people where nothing seems to go right no matter what they do either. So is it a plan or just dumb luck?
29 comments
Inb4 mass debating.
What’s that fuckin’ panda say? “…it’s all part of the plan!” No, fuck you, Mr. “I need two days to get it up” endangered species motherfuck-er…
“It’s all part of the plan”.
“What plan?!”
“The plaaan, man…”
“Who’s the man with the master plan?”
“…that guy! *points at clevername*”
“Seen”.
“…that guy! *points at clevername*”
Haha. 🙂
#predestination/calvinism
I don’t believe in it either.
Me neither.I do,however, have a strong conviction that people who take their own lives do NOT burn in a lake of Eternal Satan Soup, Durmmy..I have thought about this nasty and cruel little piece of so-called scripture that promises damnation to people who are suffering despair,fear grief,terror,agony,and cannot bear living anymore.Its bullshit.The God of my understanding is not the Crazy son of a ***** described in the Bible ..Its important to remember that the Bible was written By men.For men.To Serve Men,and therefore,the entire dirty novel is tainted by various agendas and motivations of greed,narcissism,sexual depravity,murder ,conniving,cheap trickery(Mommys Alright,Daddys Alright,They just seem a …whoops sorry.I love that fucking song,and cdnt resist when I realized id written Cheap Trick) What im saying is-there may be some things in the Bible that are good,and true.Commandments,parables,Psalms is pretty awesome.Jesus was a revolutionary and an anarchist who went David Blaine all over everybodys face,doubters and believers,alike.,and blew their minds..now THATS a great story.But im also saying I think much and most of it is written to keep people in fear and submission and ignorance and oppression.If Christianity did not relentlessly seek to divide(you’re either on the way to paradise or hell in a handbasket) and fear force humans into taking the jesus kool aid…..ok,ive gone on too long.ive not slept in 2 days,so I get a little punchy:) I will end by saying again-I know God understands when we cant keep going anymore and end the suffering.I know it is ok to let go and we dont have to live in fear of retribution.
That’s pretty much what I think of the bible, like the pirates code, it’s more like guidelines really. I’m just interested in hearing why people think things happen the way they do. Do more people think that you control your own destiny or is there something god or otherwise responsible? It could be the Force for all anyone knows. Or maybe karma? If you’re unhappy in this life is it because you were happy in another? Just thought I’d start a discussion, and see what other people think.
I think the only possible god, is an incomprehensibly unfathomable god… something that “normal people” cannot even approach conceptualizing, and will never have the opportunity to even begin to comprehend. But none of the descriptions in any of the holy books are accurate, and this self-evident fact can be easily observed by simply accepting the facts. However, “simply accepting the facts” is typically prevented by cognitive dissonance, and cognitive dissonance is a beast of a problem to solve. I’m pretty sure it only fails when the person is ready to allow themselves to perceive information contrary to their beliefs, as valid and true. Once the person is ready to accept that the truth is other than what they were taught to believe, then you can reason with them.
The reason things happen the way they do, can be called “quantum causality.” Everything is as it is, as effects resulting from the prior causes, which themselves were effects of the causes before them, all the way back to the beginning of existence (which we can’t even discern; it’s seeming increasingly likely that our universe was not the beginning of all existence). It’s just general relativity, across the entire spectrum. It’s the way matter and energy relate and are linked by “the forces and characteristics of nature.” Energy in almost all forms, flows from high pressure to low pressure, through the path of least resistance.
The interesting thing about being alive and sentient and embodying a physical form that we can control, is that we can actually alter the course of nature, rather than merely being particles among the total, drifting in whatever universal currents affect us. We can choose to apply energy to shape and direct matter. We can consume organic material and convert it into energy, both for regeneration and fuel for our own bodies, as well as for the purpose of making our environment more useful and appealing.
Heh.
Silly heathen, your logical reasoning is no match for unflinching faith!
I see your point. Don’t lose hope !
Atheist are nuts.
I’m christian and i’m not sure about god’s plan. sometimes i think he doesn’t do anything and just watches us. like maybe we are too horrible for him to help. we are pretty horrible. the bible says he will give happiness to those who suffer now. Sometimes thats hard to beleive. But i don’t know I still believe because if there’s no god then that really means humans are screwed. As for number 2 wouldn’t we just keep acting like that? No matter how much time we got? As for suicide who ever thinks thats a sin is nuts. I always thought God forgave you no matter what you do. Im in the suicidal category too but I don’t think im going to hell for that. Every christian has there own way of thinking things i guess.
…and the world’s geniuses are mostly atheists.
I like the way you think, Durmmy. You bring up some really good points. I often wonder about the same things. I figure if there is a God, he/she/it gave us free will and the ability to make choices, so that should include how we choose to live our lives and whether and how we decide to end them. And I hope that there’s no eternal anything after this. I just want it all to fade to black.
What really made me think about this is that reading posts on SP I see a lot of people who are in pain, or empty, but most are asking the same questions. Why? Why me? Why us? Why don’t things make us happy, or change? So I figured there’s lots of theories, and it wanted to see what they were. I didn’t really intend for this to be solely a religious topic but that seems to be one of the most prevalent arguments, God has a plan and all.
Free will is an interesting thing to think about, especially when it comes to the religious argument. It almost seems like the “oops” statement. If someone believes there is a plan set by God, then by the nature of that argument there can be no free will unless your will is somehow more powerful than Gods, which again defeats the argument of a master plan. If there is free will, then you are correct that you should have control over how you live and die, and there will be no eternal consequences of your life, so that begs the question of why have the guidelines?
I have often wondered about the free will aspect too (even without being a believer). Punishment for choosing to end one’s own suffering. Where is the free will??? I am not saying everybody should be free to do whatever they want, but at least they should be free to take decisions about their own lives!
I second that. I’m not a believer either, but I’m not an atheist either, I guess I would be agnostic at best, but mostly I just don’t really care about the whole concept of organized religion. Other than to think that most people on the extremes both ways are usually hypocrites who stand on soap boxes to tell other people their beliefs are wrong. I think people should be able to believe whatever they want to believe and shouldn’t be (pardon the expression) crucified for it.
Organized religion is like a red rag to me. Actually it is probably organized religion that killed faith in me. So much hypocrisy.
Yep, most of the people who are really mean and cruel are the ones that do it out of a sense of self righteousness given to them by their extreme beliefs.
“I’m not a believer either, but I’m not an atheist…”
^prime example of cognitive dissonance.
The reason that barrier still exists for you, is because you’re still wrestling with the fact that none of the gods described by any of the holy books could be possible. They *definitely* do not exist, as described. You simply haven’t progressed far enough along that thought path, to realize that there is no evidence in this world that any of the alleged gods actually exist, and what is present, is only the indication of absence, given by lack of any evidence. It’s not like we haven’t looked. We’ve looked everywhere and in every way that is possible for us to look, and there is no indication of the existence of any actual god.
Atheism is the result of agnosticism. It literally means “without the belief in any god,” which is the only logical, reasonable, rational, intellectually honest, justifiable stance that can be assumed.
However… people get it mixed up and think that “atheist” is synonymous with the assertion that no type of god could be possible at all, which is not correct. This is called “assertive atheism.” Based on the astounding lack of any evidence at all, they “take license” to make a fair and reasonable extrapolation on the basis that “absence of evidence is evidence of absence,” but the grounds for that being acceptable in this particular case, is that we have indeed tested everything we can test, and still found zero evidence. It’s not like “just because you didn’t see it, that means it’s not there.” It’s much more thorough than that, which believers try to disregard, in order to try to protect their own cognitively dissonant beliefs.
And then you have what is now known as “anti-theism,” which actually has nothing to do with insisting no god of any type could be possible, and instead, means that the person believes that no organized religion should go around insisting that everyone should believe in an impossible god, which clearly does not actually exist. An intellectually honest person should not approve of any currently established organized religion, because intellectual dishonesty is a prerequisite for all who insist that an impossible description of their indoctrinated “god” is not just real, but is the only acceptable definition thereof… despite the reality of the situation being that their description has already been disproved countless times.
However, i can’t call myself “anti-religion,” because whether anyone realizes it or not, religion does not necessarily have to be theism. Religion does not require any gods, or any belief in any gods.
Agnostic just means skeptical and intellectual honesty. Allow yourself to see the facts as unbiased as you can, and allow the evidence to take you as far as it can, and then don’t make assumptions beyond what should be reasonably assumed in accordance with all available evidence.
So, according to these correct definitions, i am agnostic, atheist, and anti-theism…
But even i find it fascinating to attempt to conceive of what type of god “God” would have to be, in order to exist in some way we cannot know or identify or locate…
And even i, cannot honestly assert that no type of god could be possible. I can’t test the entire universe, so i can’t know that there cannot be any type of god. Maybe there is? But if there is, it’s not what any of the religions i’ve ever heard of, have ever even approached accurately describing.
And so, in order for me to respect any type of theism, those theists will have to invent a description that is actually possible in our universe (or beyond it), and that does not perpetually contradict itself, and they will have to admit that there is no observable indication that can be reasonably construed as positive evidence for the existence of a god.
@clevername I guess I can’t call myself anything according to those definitions you described. I just really have no opinion either way. If there is a god, or gods, or deities in general, that’s great. If there isn’t, that’s great too. Religion, whether it’s based on a god or not, just simply has no place in my life.
yeah man, labels are… complicated.
I figure “if there is a god,” the only way i’m getting punished is if that god is pure evil. And if that is the case, what could i possibly do about it anyway?
What i meant regarding religion, is that it’s more about rituals and feeling a sacred connection to, and appreciation of, your world, your self, and all other life. I see no problem with that type of thing. I could even describe myself as “religious,” in that way.
Language and the ways people use it, are significant factors in many of the world’s most difficult problems.
Yeah if there is a god, I don’t know why he would feel the need to punish people either unless there was some evil intent. I’d look at it as if this is all some big experiment, God would probably be of the understanding that he’s not always going to get the results he wants every time. Scientists don’t burn the lab rats in hellfire and brimstone because they failed to get the cheese.
why are so many in pain and suffering? God doesnt exist…
If there was a god what makes people presume he would be interfering in the earth’s affairs in the name of justice? Who says god wouldn’t just be an uninvolved overseer?
I had a foster father who was like that. He and his family did terrible things to me, close to psychoterror, really for no other reason but to make me suffer, and they belonged to a group that proclaimed we are One World. He starved himself to death on certain days and then he did things to me. His family (his wife and real children) were even worse and had only joined for political reasons and were the apotheosis of hypocrisy. I also had horrible experiences with another very powerful group, probably the most powerful religion. I am not sure we are allowed to name religions here and it is probably irrelevant anyway, so I will leave it at that.
i hope i get into heaven
i want to die in my sleep and ride on my heavenly golden clould serpent into heaven and beyond. Bliss 🙂
Durmmy-I dont think its possible to understand God. I do know however,that all the ones created by people here on earth-all the concepts of God-are woefully inadequate in a lot if ways…and afterlife concepts are pretty sketchy or just plain FUCKED UP ..they are transparently based on what men thought was a rippingly awesome time during the time period in which it was written…thats why you get streets of gold or a pack of virgins to keep in the afterlife-GREEDY,HORNY MEN wrote all that shite CLEARLY.LOL
Eban Alexander’s book Proof of Heaven is a very cool story of a neurosurgeons experience when he was in coma..it blew my mind and I dont fuck with all those types of books-his was credible to me bc he knows exactly what part of his brain was shut down by the illness and it was the part tes,hat makes up our dreams,our creative thought,etc-and it was not possible to just make up the stuff he did and saw.Its cool-very cool.Different than any scenario ive ever heard..it struck me almost immediately as legit for several reasons.God being nothing like the Big G from scriptures,and the first communication he experienced with a spirit …Id reccomend it to anyone-