This should be the talk topic of the day. I’m sure you all read about Michelle Carter a high school honor student who was pressuring her boyfriend to commit suicide with proof of over 1000 text. They both were suicidal but instead she assisted him and it’spossible to even be a crime because she’s being tride accessory manslaughter and could face up to 20 years. so beware on sharing methods and encouraging others. Also I think everyone here on this site is awesome I appreciate this community heavy. I’m glad to meet everyone of you. let’s do our best to prevent this and if suicidal I and we understand just allow it to only be personal. I wish everyone good.
69 comments
My friend told me about this case, it really is awful! It is useful to know though, thanks for posting it
Your welcome I thought it would be useful subject to share. Especially since the majority here contemplate the same
This isn’t the same. She pushed someone who DIDN’T want to commit suicide to do it.
True. Not that anyone here would ever push or pressure someone to commit suicide but it still helps to be mindful and also aware of how powerful comments like those can be
He specifically STATED that he DID NOT want to do it. THERE is the problem. I am all for suicide and for people who want to die to be able to do it. But he DIDN’T. She kept hammering at him to do it. At one point, he even got out of the car, told her he didn’t want to do it, and she made him get back in. Read all the articles and texts to get the full story.
I think we are all in agreement here that VOLUNTARY suicide is fine. But this is about a girl who kept badgering a guy to kill himself when he said he DIDN’T want to do it. When you push someone who doesn’t want to die to kill himself, that’s murder.
I’m interested how they know what they talked about on the phone. The part where he gets out of the truck then gets back in all occurs on actual voice phone, was she recording what they were saying? If so that is really sick. I mean sociopath kind of sick. I didn’t see in any of the articles I read about how they know what they talked about.
If she admitted to saying that, she is not very smart and/or has a moron for an attorney.
She is a sick person. If someone tells you they’re sad and depressed, and you tell that person to kill themselves, and they tell you “I don’t want to do it” but you keep pressuring the person to do it until he finally gives up, is not right.
It’s one thing to listen to someone and say you support their decision, but it’s another when that person tells you he doesn’t want to die, and you push him to do it anyway.
But bah, you are thinking this with an adult brain. She is 17, the area that makes smart choices just isn’t that developed. which is why this is a tricky case.
Yes, she’s 17, and not 10. She very well knew what she was doing. I remember when I was 17. I was very logical and analytical. You have the capacity for reason when you’re 17. You know words can hurt. You know that death is final and that pushing someone to do something they don’t want to do is wrong.
There are cases where minors have murdered other people. Like bludgened them to death. They were 16, 17. And they have been jailed because at that age, you know it’s wrong to kill someone.
Remember back when you were 17. You knew what was right and what was wrong. You know that lying and stealing and murder is wrong. I don’t, just based on those texts, she sounded like she just wanted him to die.
When I was 17 I might have done what she did. Depending on the events leading up to it. I was very impulsive and passionate about things. I didn’t think through things very well. I beg to differ with you on this. Medical studies have proven again and again that the frontal cortex of the brain does not finish maturing until age 25. Here if you have trouble sleeping tonight:
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1440.010/abstract
oh, that last line is missing a word. It’s supposed to say “I don’t know, just based on those texts..”
So if a 24 year old man rapes a girl, he can claim “my mind is not fully developed, so thus I did not know what I was doing, and can’t be help accountable for ANY of my actions”
In theory yes, I didn’t say it was fair, I am just saying it is medical fact.
Great link Hazy, about the Adolescent Brain.
Here is another good one:
Adolescence, Brain Development and Legal Culpability
americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/criminal_justice_section_newsletter/crimjust_juvjus_Adolescence.authcheckdam.pdf
OH yeah, that one is really good because it is from a legal aspect. I’m sure that is going to come out strong in this case.
This may not be a popular opinion but I don’t see any added value to sending her to prison.
Bah it’s all good the subject is about suicide this is sad one ofcourse and overtrue is right it’s serious How a comment and peer pressure meaning the outcome of someone’s words can take serious fate in someones life
Hazy As for her recording I have no idea but I do know that there are contracts the phone companies have with the government because me being the paranoid suicide type I did serious research and asked around and found that out can voice conversations be kept idk but if she recorded it and didn’t at least try to hide it being the honor A student that ppl say she is than shes consumed by evil or the devil my prayers are on that boys family and especially his grandmother as for the girl I hope she gets a second chance with the help that she needs
Legally speaking, I’m not sure it matters much at present whether he wanted to do it or not. He still voluntarily did it or it, and she still provided an influence in that direction.
Also, yeah, brains are full of teh dumb until a certain point in development, and all that development is undone by depression and anxiety, where applicable. Being human is hard.
Well the tricky word here is ‘pressuring’. I haven’t seen the news, but let’s hope that it can be proofed that she was just ‘supportive’, specially if she is suicidal too, (even if I don’t know if that’s the correct expression). But I can’t imagine to face charges for talking about death wishes… although it’s quite a complicated subject when it actually leads to someone else’s death. :/
The poor lad… :/
@bah the above* The lack of sleep is finally getting to me
On a similar note, or a different one… I used to get a lot of suicidal texts off one of my best friends years back. I remember I used to get so paranoid that I would accidentally say the wrong thing and that would be that, but I guess as long as you avoid outright telling someone that they should do it or keep reasonably neutral, you’re less likely to be accused of contributing to the result.
See I know what you mean some people especially a best friend such as my own would double no triple read before sending me a text to calm me down hhoping that they didn’t make a mistake where I would take it the wrong way.
It got me so worried. It is difficult on friends, I know mine (the one or two I have) do struggle when I go downhill but I find bluntness, honesty and kindness go a long way in providing some kind of comfort in those times of shittyness… usually…
This gives a clearer version of the story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cKgy6R5IA
She’s not just someone who “shared methods and encouraged others.” She is a murderer. The guy clearly DID NOT want to commit suicide, and said he didn’t want to do it on multiple occasions, but she was relentless in making a plan for him, making him get all the ingredients, and making him get in the car. When the fumes were working, he actually got OUT of the car and told her didn’t want to do it, but she yelled at him to get back in.
This is very different from people here at SP. People here do NOT encourage people who DON’T want to die to kill themselves. Or I would hope not.
I am not against suicide, totally for it. But we can’t be for people who pressure others who DON’T want to do it to kill themselves. THAT is murder.
he’s not just someone who “shared methods and encouraged others.” She is a murderer. The guy clearly DID NOT want to commit suicide, and said he didn’t want to do it on multiple occasions, but she was relentless in making a plan for him, making him get all the ingredients, and making him get in the car. When the fumes were working, he actually got OUT of the car and told her didn’t want to do it, but she yelled at him to get back in.
This is very different from people here at SP. People here do NOT encourage people who DON’T want to die to kill themselves. Or I would hope not.
I am not against suicide, totally for it. But we can’t be for people who pressure others who DON’T want to do it to kill themselves. THAT is murder.
See, I didn’t know that.
True I heavily agree this guy definitely wasn’t in for it. This particular way of suicide is peer pressure which is wrong. Especially the text when he sent “I’m having ice cream with my sisters I don’t want to leave them they’ll be sad”…….Still as most ppl im completely against suicide myself but this way is over board still in my heart I really hope she doesnt go to jail she’s young and it’s obvious that she has deeper issues where one would phantom to encourage another on suicide.
I’m not completely against suicide myself*
I agree. I’m worried about the fact that she is facing some deep issues too. This is why judging is so complicated. Even so I am not saying more than that because it’s more complicated for the fact that she involved someone else and hurt him.
I think what some of us are trying to do is to avoid hurting others and even ourselves. Idk
This gives a clearer version of the story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cKgy6R5IA
TYT covers this story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cKgy6R5IA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cKgy6R5IA
Sorry, my posts with links didn’t post, so I tried typing it again, and othing posted and now they are all showing up. O_o
This is a very interesting article, thank you for sharing. I have no opinion on her guilt. I have no opinion on his intentions either.
I think it is important to remember there are a lot of individuals who are teenagers on this site. Some as young as 12. There are a few regular contributors that are 16 or 17, and I think I forget how young they are sometimes because they are so well spoken. Just a reminder to all us adults this forum to be mindful of our younger more vulnerable members. Not that they aren’t mature enough to make smart decisions, but that in the end, if one of our really young members does decide to leave us, and successfully completes the act, focus could swing to this forum. Which is most likely why the rules of “no m3thods, no p@rtners, (no hate) is in place.
Just my two cents. In the end the court will decide about this case. It will be interesting to see who is on the jury.
Your welcome hazy I thought I could also learn by seeing what everyone’s thoughts especially since I’ve been keeping tabs on this case since the summer of 2014 when Conrad killed himself
See I didn’t know that most regular contributor were 17-18 it’s common though and it makes sense for teens since I was 17 myself when I first ever attempted suicide. I was more confused and easily provoked than what I am now at 25.
Also for the teens it’s makes sense no methods no partners no hate.
I really hope she doesn’t go to jail I hope she gets help and moves somewhere to start a new life but on probation away from social media
Well she is in Massachusetts and not Texas so she has a fighting chance.
Still, this is going to be a highly polarizing issue in the months to come. What they decide in this case could very well turn the tide either way on assisted suicide in the USA and what constitutes killing someone. Is it just being apathetic about the situation? Will this mean that those of us that compassionately step out of the way when someone wants to die could be held liable for not doing something to stop the person? Could this mean that texting or talking about dying and then someone carrying out their plan makes us liable for their death? It is a really interesting topic, and not to be taken lightly either.
Part of me feels all children should be protected, that it is my responsibility in this world as an adult to protect all children. However the compassionate side of me, the one that believes in harm reduction and allowing people personal freedom want to let anyone in pain the choice to leave this world in a painless, loving way. Not impulsively mind you, but in a way that is well thought out, compassionate and loving.
I am unsure if really young people can make this decision on their own, the brain just isn’t developed enough. I’m not discounting our younger members from needing to be validated that they are indeed in real pain, what I am saying is that ending ones life is a kind of thing that has to be well thought out, with all the facts laid out. I don’t think it should be undertaken by anyone who hasn’t used every avenue in an attempt to achieve mental stability. But that is just one gal’s opinion. Here in Texas it isn’t a very popular one either. It makes me crack up, we can open carry (guns) but we can’t make a smart choice about ending our own lives.
Hazy I live in Connecticut now and I’m not far from Massachusetts so over here this news is mentioned especially updates on the case. It’s interesting that’s why even being a hypocrite to people on the subject suicide “don’t do it live is worth it” while I know it may not be I’d rather do that than face any type of crime especially a death from someone that I must live with.
Definitely suicide is no joke and it must be thoroughly thought out weather it’s the right decision or not.
I think people are missing the point. This ISN’T about whether suicide should be legal or assisted suicide should be legal. Most of us here agree that it is our own choice if we WANT to die. However, the issue with this case is that the guy DIDN’T want to go through with it but she was relentless in her pursuits to get him to do it. His very last actions were to get out of the car and tell her he didn’t want to die. And then she pushed him to get back in to off himself. That is an entirely different story.
It is, its horrible but it shows how vulnerable people can get and the kind of influence others can have over them.
But truthfully bah, we don’t know that. We don’t know the promises they made to each other leading up to the event. There may have been months of conversations where it was brutally obvious that he wanted to die and was ready to die. He never says he doesn’t want to die because there is hope for his friend, he simply says he is concerned about his family. She counters with if he isn’t going to do it she is going to get him help.
I don’t know, I’d have to see all the evidence for myself. I’d like to read all the texts and emails between them before pointing fingers. It is easy to say she pushed him to do it when all we have is media bias regarding this. Remember this is happening in the USA, where there is a lot of bias against women and suicide in general. They are painting her as a lethal girlfriend. I just can’t make that judgement without all the evidence in front of me.
The texts that have been published shows he that didn’t want to do it. It would be nice if they would publish the entire months of conversation.
Exactly, but showing a balanced story isn’t sexy and it doesn’t sell add space. No one is going to do that. We would have to get the court transcripts, and even that is bias.
Just based off of those published texts, she doesn’t sound like she was a good person. Just my opinion. And it would awful if he really didn’t want to kill himself and that he’s dead because she wanted him to die.
I agree.
anyone that says we con’t have well thought out serious conversations here at SP needs to read this thread.
I DO want our right to die or have assisted suicide. But this girl has perversed that whole notion. Now society is going to think, “hey, we can’t have assisted suicide because there will be people who don’t actually want to die be pushed into killing themselves.” That’s a big problem, because that can and does happen. And murders would be covered up as “assisted suicide.”
It’s a slippery slope. It’s like the issue with selling your organs. It’s illegal in many countries. One of the reasons being that someone can threaten you to “voluntarily” sell your organs to someone, and if you don’t, your mother/sister/husband/etc will be killed. That kind of stuff does happen.
Their communications were primarily text messages, not voice.
The news media is quoting the damaging/encouraging text messages. Many of the text messages were kind and loving.
I have read hundreds of pages of the transcribed text messages in court documents. It’s been a while (months) since I’ve read the official documents.
This case isn’t that simple or clear cut. She did encourage him, but it isn’t that he never wanted to die. He often expressed killing himself and getting everything he needed to actually kill himself.
But, like all or most of us here on SP, he waivered back and forth.
This is what the media is reporting – CNN:
“In text messages between July 6 and July 12, 2014, “Carter assisted Conrad’s suicide by counseling him to overcome his doubts, devising a plan to run a combustion engine within his truck … and by directing him to go back in his truck after he exited it, when he became frightened and said the plan was working,” according to a court document.”
See his is very bias. We all know there is a lot more to the events leading up to this. Like everything else in this country, it will be tried in the media long before the actual trial occurs.
Either way her life is ruined.
Yes, as depressed and suicidal people, we all waver in our thoughts about wanting to kill ourselves. I’ve thought about it many many many times. But the difference is that if you’re wavering, AT THAT moment, you don’t want to kill yourself, but someone keeps pressuring you to do it, and that is wrong. Because at that moment, you DON’T want to die.
No I agree that the might have been the deciding factor in the moment. But neither had the brain maturity needed to make a smart, thoughtful decision in that moment.
It was the tiny chins that brought them together.
I had to laugh at that! Oh dear…
Here is a link to a court document that includes some of the texts:
Lintvwpri DOT files DOT wordpress DOT com SLASH 2015 SLASH 08 SLASH response-to-michelle-carters-motion-to-dismiss DOT pdf
The court document:
lintvwpri.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/response-to-michelle-carters-motion-to-dismiss.pdf
Wow. Wow.
Imagine if there was someone here at SP who kept pressuring everyone in every post, to commit suicide. Would you want that person on SP?
It would be against SP rules. What I would want wouldn’t factor into it. No m3thods, no p@rtners, no hate. I would argue that would be advertising to be a p@rtner of sorts. In addition there are other here that would find that hateful. Hate in a grey area that is very subjective.
That isn’t what was happening with these two. They were in a ‘relationship’ for about two years. Their communication wasn’t always pressuring suicide.
Right. This is going to be tough for the jury and judge. I just wish the media would step out of it. Plus it is text messages, it is very hard to judge the mental state from text messages. They should have 12 18-25 year olds on the jury. Us old folks are too well developed to judge this train wreck of a relationship that ended with one of the dead.
Man, imagine how long that trial is gonna last. Nov 30 2015 was just the “pre-trial” hearing. The death was on Jul 12 2014. It is now 2016.
What’s the latest status? Has the trial officially begun yet?
I don’t know, I do know it is going to be a media circus.
No the latest up date was that the jury’s had Been indited
Pressuring someone you supposedly love into suicide due to selfish desires… heh, and i thought i had seen it all. If it’s true i’m guessing she should indeed go to jail. There’s always the possibility that it’s just being twisted by the media tho, because it makes no sense that if they were bf and gf they didn’t attempted together… i mean, if she wasn’t suicidal she would have likely tried to stop him. Guess i’ll google on this because it got me really curious, thanks for sharing it!
yeah that baffled me a little to reading the story. typically we would see them attempting together. I hadn’t thought of that though. that is a strange part of the story.
Yeah, that’s why she sounded fishy to me.
masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/11/michelle_carters_encouragement.html
Carter’s defense attorney Joseph Cataldo is adamant that however tragic Roy’s death, his client has committed no crime and should not be charged as an adult.
Cataldo said Carter did not physically assist Roy or threaten him into killing himself, and so is not criminally liable. Roy had a history of suicidal ideation, and at one point encouraged Carter to join him in a “Romeo and Juliet” style suicide pact, which Carter rejected, Cataldo said.
“All we have here is encouraging suicide at one point, at the end,” Cataldo said. “At first it was not encouraging and in fact trying to dissuade him from doing it. Eventually she supported his idea and he caused his own death.” #
I don’t know, but someone who got out of the car and said “I don’t want to do it” and having someone saying “Get back in the car and finish it” doesn’t sound like he wanted to die.
Yes, that is why the news article says “At first” –
“At first it was not encouraging and in fact trying to dissuade him from doing it.”
“At first” – meaning in the beginning of their nearly two year relationship.
What about parent’s who verbally abuse their children? They didn’t physically touch them, but that doesn’t mean what the parent’s are doing are right.