The wrong people get shot innocently. Why couldn’t a couple of guys joy riding come along and do me a favor and shoot me in the back. I wish I could switch places with Chris Lane.
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I wish I could find a way to make you want to keep your life. I promise you, I’ve been low, real low; like psyche ward of the hospital low, twice there. But I promise, even if it gets worse, somehow you can really find a way. I promise you. If I could take your hand and make you trust me, and show you there are friends that care, I would. I really would, but Chris Hansen would pop out and I’d get in trouble lmao. Seriously, you can make friends, you can make it. I promise you.
Yeah that crime pissed me off. That guy probably loved his life…had a beautiful woman was handsome and had a loving family…..That was outright bullshit what those kids did and people still think there is more “good” in the world ….that society isn’t headed in a fucking downward spiral. I wish they had killed themselves rather than steal an innocent persons life. They did it…..”because they were bored”….what the fuck is wrong with these idiot kids today? Back then if we were bored we found something to do not someone to kill.
I just went and read about this.
Honestly, those “kids” need to be publicly tortured, and not allowed to die.
1) they admit it
2) they claim “just for fun” and “because they were bored.”
I want to see torches and snipped digits, and have their screams broadcast over a PA system.
I think that is the only way to really get through to some people… and it should be strictly reserved for cases like this, not just applied to anyone who does something bad.
But since that’s not going to happen, i hope they are mercilessly brutalized in prison, but without being allowed to die. It would seem they deserve it.
@clevername: Chris Lane’s own girlfriend said that no one deserved to die like that, even his attackers. Calling for a return to the dark ages with public torturings hardly helps matters, does it?
These boys are children…
I specifically stated that i did Not want them to die.
Death is release from agony. They deserve agony, not release.
Plus, i’m sure his girlfriend is very distraught, and i would reckon she probably believes in some sort of afterlife… which has been known to skew the judgement of a mind or two.
I don’t even know the guy. I don’t have to know the guy. It’s the principle of the thing.
I don’t care how old they are. If you’re old enough to do what they did, you’re old enough to be made an example. We can’t have people going around killing random people just because they’re bored, just for fun. That is completely unacceptable. These are the kinds of people rules are made to protect us from: those who don’t give a fuck about rules.
Hearing the agonizing screams of a tortured person who chose to murder someone “for fun, out of boredom,” would certainly send a message that needs to be heard by everyone; and that message would be: “don’t fucking do that, or we will catch you and make you suffer.”
There is no sufficient excuse for what they did. They absolutely deserve to suffer as much as humanly possible. And i DEFINITELY don’t want any tax dollars i’d ever be forced to pay into this system, to support those “kids” in any way. I would be willing, however, to fund whatever brings them prolonged agony.
I do agree that they don’t deserve to die. But neither do they deserve to Live.
Maybe the “digit snipping” is a little extreme… but they should be “gently tortured,” at a bare minimum, and forced to see images of the face of their victim, every day, for the rest of their lives. They should be isolated from other people, never allowed to form human bonds, never allowed to experience any of the things that their victim no longer can, except bare minimum required for survival, so that they may continue suffering an existence destroyed by their own actions, until it expires naturally.
These “kids” apparently think death is no big deal, so perhaps they will understand agony?
Maybe if people didn’t think they’d get an easy way out via death, but would instead have to endure endless torment for the duration of their existence, they wouldn’t think such things would be “fun.”
I think the solution to stuff like this isn’t to revisit the same evil that started it. If someone shoots an innocent, they’re no longer innocent; yet to shoot them makes the shooter, and the state, and the society legitimizing the shooting, no longer innocent. People do stuff like this because they’re apathetic, because they lack a sense that human life has value and dignity. To take those responsible for the crime and treat them the same as they treated their victims is to legitimize what they did to their victims, imo. Society doesn’t need any more violence – we have enough random shootings, school shootings, bombings, and seemingly incoherent acts of brutality on a daily basis.
And it’s not even just this incident, though this incident is particularly infuriating, because of the motive being “entertainment.”
And that reminded me of another story that happened recently, in my area, where a young boy’s iphone was stolen by another “boy.”
The owner of the iphone felt that it was wrong to allow someone to just take what was his, and valiantly (many would say foolishly) chose to confront the perpetrator, and seek the return of his rightful property.
And so, the kid who stole the iphone, killed the kid he stole it from, upon being confronted and asked to return the item.
This “kid” /murdered/ the kid from whom he stole property.
I would reserve the exact same punishment for this “kid.” If you’re old enough to murder for “entertainment” (let’s construe an iphone as “entertainment”), then you are old enough to suffer immensely for your heinous crime, until the day that brings your natural demise.
Meanwhile, we need to stop /wasting resources/ on arresting completely innocent cannabis users and growers.
I shouldn’t even have to say it: it’s wrong to murder a human being for entertainment, regardless of age or “ignorance.”
It’s wrong to steal something that isn’t yours, and then murder the person who just wants their stuff back. It’s theirs! Not yours! Give it back!
It’s obvious that “the law” isn’t working. We need something more extreme, like torturing people who do horrible things for stupid reasons. Maybe if we also make their parents watch, then more parents would understand: “this is what happens if you raise your kids to murder people for entertainment! (or if you don’t even bother raising them, and they figure this shit out on their own)” Hell, maybe that would even curb the population increase?
Or maybe the solution should be that these “kids” should be forced to give up their healthy organs, to save the lives of those who might need them. Would it be “fair” then? I mean, they destroyed another human being for no reason. It should be fair to harvest their organs and donate them to people who don’t need to murder other humans for sheer entertainment.
@lorax then what is the solution? to give the life in a comfy jail cell for life where they are fed for free and have shelter? I agree with clever some crimes deserve extreme punishment especially ones like this where there is no reason….no motivation….they didn’t rob him, they didn’t dislike him, he didn’t disrespect them….he was jogging….and they killed him for no reason….This should be considered a hate crime not because of race but because they obviously hate human life……They need to be anal raped daily, water boarded, beaten, and forced to do extremely harsh labor and be fed through an I.V they don’t even deserve to taste food. The punishment should fit the crime and this crime is a notch above capitol murder…….This is worse than Jodi Arias and George Zimmerman its even worse than Casey Anthony…..At least in those cases they didn’t kill for fun……There is just a level of evil in those children that is terrifying especially when you realize there are probably people out there rooting for these idiots calling them “real gangsters”…..Those aren’t even kids those are demons if I were the parents I would testify for the prosecution and purposely give damaging testimony that hurt them. Parents love is unconditional but there’s a tiny asterisk next to it that means in certain extreme circumstances all love is lost. I think this is worse than Ariel Castro at least he didn’t kill those women he did some fucked up shit but they are alive.
@lorax:
I disagree that what i’m proposing would “legitimize” the initial crime.
Murder for entertainment is not “violence.” Is is Ultra-Violence. It is utterly meaningless, arbitrary, and permanent.
What gives life value and dignity? Perhaps… /suffering/. Perhaps if perpetrators of such absurdly vile acts would be dealt a sufficient amount and degree of suffering, they would understand what they’ve done wrong. But simply saying “hey, that’s wrong, but all we’re going to do is put you in this special place and coddle you until we determine that you should have another chance in the world (even though you didn’t give a shit that you were permanently removing someone else’s chance for no reason!), because, hey, violence is wrong, and even though you will never value the severity of your own actions, we’re still going to arbitrarily assign a value to your life, even though you don’t deserve it” isn’t going to work.
If “extreme torment” was the punishment for inexcusable violence such as these incidents… there would not just be “not more violence,” there would be FAR less… because no one wants to be tortured, but some people don’t mind facing death. Some people think death is no big deal, and so they place almost zero value on killing someone else… such as the equivalent of a few minutes of “entertainment.”
Suffering would surely show them that death is worth far more than a few moments of entertainment… and that a life without the actions they chose, would have been worth far more… but it is too late for them, now, just as they’ve made it too late for their victim, and everyone who will miss that victim, for the rest of their lives.
Why is it the baseline assumption that the alternative is a comfy prison cell with all the amenities they’ve left behind, and even free health care, free food, etc…?
Why not just a huge pit in the middle of the desert, or on some island, with armed guards to shoot anyone trying to escape?
Less moral compromise that way. Let the prisoners eat each other if they want to.
I’ll only compromise if:
1) suffering
2) not death
These conditions are met.
Any and/or all kinds of suffering would be considered, but death is not allowed.
I like what Pain said about only allowing feeding through IV “they don’t even deserve to taste food.”
I don’t necessarily consider prison “comfy,” but compared to surprise! gunshots! it’s probably very nice. You know, with the whole remaining alive to breath and think and feel and smell and taste and speak and move around, thing.
Might want to mention that it’s hard to pull a trigger without fingers, hard to hold a gun without hands, hard to aim without eyes, and hard to run away without feet. Plus, there’s lots of people out there with failing organs, who could probably get better use out of them, than someone like these perpetrators.
I like the idea of forcing them to remain as minimally alive as possible, since what they did was force someone to be completely dead, for no reason. Or, i suppose we could just blatantly enslave them and use them as mules, or something.
The other issue I have with capital punishment is that it’s assuming that the murderer is, by virtue of his/her crime, somehow less human than their victim. Humans are known for a propensity to fuck up and do things they later regret immensely, and for the propensity to obsess over those unchangeable facts of the past until it consumes them. While you’re young, you do utterly moronic things that, when you’re older, make absolutely no sense and cannot be justified. So a kid kills somebody; it’s tragic, awful, and unjustifiable, but at the same time, the kid is obviously in no small part the product of his/her parenting and the reverberating ideals planted within him by the society surrounding him. If we’re so cavalier to kill murderers, it’s no wonder we have so many murderers. People place no value on human life because they see society placing no value on human life – while also placing value on human life at the same time. It’s a schizophrenic value system which is incomprehensible to everyone who takes a step back to look at it. We bomb folks in the middle east like it’s swatting flies, guilty or no, so us folks in the first world can drive SUV’s and wear plastic sunglasses while enjoying luxuries the rest of the world can only dream about. Our idea of culture, and cultural values have gotten so mixed up and dissonant that it’s no wonder we have so much violence permeating our society today.
Kill or torture criminals*
~ just revising that statement for clarity.
Sometimes you just have to start ignoring superfluous BS and start solving problems.
I honestly don’t recall doing anything particularly “utterly moronic, senseless, and unjustified.” I mean, sure, i had a childhood and was young once, but none of that is the source of any of my soul-devouring regrets. lol.
Am i really /that/ much better than anyone?
I knew right from wrong at a very early age, and i don’t think that had anything to do with whether or not i was intelligent. It may have given me a 2-3 year advantage, but still. By the time i was old enough to successfully operate a vehicle, there was zero question in my mind that senseless killings of random people for sheer entertainment, was absolutely wrong, and not justifiable in any way.
I don’t get to drive an SUV. I didn’t approve of the carpet bombing of innocent people. And i don’t think “capital punishment” is relevant in the way you suggest, though i certainly disagree with it in principle, but only because it eliminates the suffering of the guilty of heinous acts, the nature of which they are often fully aware, prior to committing.
But these cases in particular, with murder for entertainment… this is where the punishment must be most severe, /because/ of the lack of value placed by the perpetrators, not only on death, not only on life, but on reason itself.
Our system needs to value motive. People need to know that we must only ever do fucked up things if there is some semblance of a justifiable basis for them. Pain should be the penalty for arbitrary and non-justifiable destruction.
But we also need “law reform,” which is another can of worms, and is mired in an endless sea of partisan rhetoric.
I think every crime (going by right/wrong, not necessarily what “law” says) should have an equivalent punishment, but not death. There should be no mercy for the wicked and cruel, who go around destroying lives “for entertainment.”
We live in a mechanical society that treats human beings as cattle, livestock, or some kind of replaceable parts for an enormous machine made of people and symbols. People do fucked up things because they don’t feel human, and if they don’t feel human, they don’t think other people are human to the same extent. The more violent “society” becomes, the less human people feel. It’s just a huge clusterfuck and we’re all looking for a piece of ass.
I don’t think punishment makes anyone less human. I think their own choice of actions can, though, and i think that most people know right from wrong, before earning their punishments through their choice of heinous actions. Issuing the earned penalty is another form of dignity. To reduce it would be to reduce their humanity, and the value of the lives they destroyed.
Maybe we could invent some sort of myth about facing the punishment of pain, correlating to redemption. But some crimes might require a lifetime of suffering to “redeem.”
@lorax ….So again my question is what would you recommend ? I just don’t think that prison is acceptable for those types…..We do kill people to show that killing is wrong which really makes no sense but then what is the alternative? To have them live in prison? I also think in a way the death penalty does make sense because whatever you did should happen to you…..It doesn’t matter if they feel regret is doesn’t change anything or eases anybodies pain. While they may be a product of bad parenting and a horrible environment I bet they still know the basics of good and bad right and wrong. They still have to be held accountable. I agree about the middle east and the bullshit that is “the war on terror” but its not “us” that’s doing it, its not congress….its not even the president….its THTB that pull the strings and keep the money flowing….after all peace is bad for the weapons business ….I think all wars are just money generators and like Jesse Venture likes to say…they are all started with a false flag attack. I still think these kids need “cruel and unusual punishment” because they committed a “cruel and unusual crime”
I choose to define myself and humanity /despite/ the machine, not in compliance with the way i disapprove of it treating us.
We have to take responsibility for our own actions, especially those that most heavily impact others. That is the point, and why pain is the key to conveying such a message. If someone doesn’t respect the value i assign my own life, and that of humanity in general, then i do not give a fuck how “less human” they might feel. If you are a threat to my life, you are not human in my eyes. You are a dangerous animal that i must either separate from, or eliminate, to ensure that you don’t harm me or anyone i care about. People who don’t value human life as more than a moment of entertainment, and are willing to murder another person specifically for that moment of entertainment, then they do not deserve to be valued as a human. You have to respect that value, give that value, allow that value in others, in order to preserve your own humanity.
If you can’t do that, GTFO, IMO. And if you needlessly ruin lives while you’re here, i would prefer to take the cost of pain from you, in the greatest amount your existence is capable of repaying.
That “fairness” doctrine is untenable because it’s inconsistent. While we might like applying it to criminals, we let politicians and businessmen do horrible things with zero culpability. When you do something wrong, you don’t get back what you give, necessarily. You’re still a human being; you’re still alive; you’re still learning from both your mistakes, and vicariously through the mistakes other people have made. This whole idea of punishment is just a reverberation of the same things a murderer has done to merit the punishment. It’s saying that it’s OK when the state does this, but not OK when an individual does this. The distinction is arbitrary. Why not let the victim’s families decide what to do, and carry out whatever punishment they deem fitting, rather than delegate the act of punishing criminals to some nebulous dispensary of justice? In the situation, face to face with another human being whom has the label of “guilty,” applied to them, it’s difficult violate the same moral principle that the murderer violated, entirely because the violation itself serves no rational purpose. People still kill each other; the state still sanctions violence against countless people every single day; citizens who really don’t care if they live or die will not be dissuaded by torture any more than a death sentence. They’re still going to do whatever it is they’re going to do because the punishment is abstract and not real and immediate when they’re contemplating, or committing the crime. The execution of torture is entirely for the sake of the people wanting to see violence done against someone, and a murderer gives people a really easy target for the exact same sadism which is required for the murderer to commit murder in the first place.
“That “fairness†doctrine is untenable because it’s inconsistent. While we might like applying it to criminals, we let politicians and businessmen do horrible things with zero culpability.”
Stop right there. Define “We.”
My own principles apply to politicians and businessmen as well. Those titles do not preclude them from also being criminals. Whether the system currently in place is compatible with my “doctrine,” is irrelevant. I’m talking “should,” not “is.”
Some things are not serious enough to justify serious punishments. Some serious things are reasonably justifiable. We must establish a more appropriate method of determining which is what.
My argument was for pain being the punishment, for the sake of the person experiencing the punishment, not necessarily for everyone else, but sure, partially for the families of victims. But the point is that death is release from pain, release from further consequence, release from this horrible world. Pain applied to the violent criminal, at least gives pain where it is due, rather than leaving only the grieving to feel pain.
And sure, “the state” is certainly corrupt… but what you’re saying is tantamount to claiming that the state should have no rights because of imperfection, while also eliminating any possible penalty for any crime, since “the state shouldn’t be punishing people if it makes them that way.” But the state isn’t responsible for the actions of the individual, and the individual is not responsible for the actions of the state.
Example: i blame enforcers and lobbyists and legislators equally, for “bad laws,” and all the problems caused by allowing them to become and remain laws. But none of those people are me, and the “extended influence” that places those people in those positions, is not all-encompassing. They are responsible for their actions, and i for mine, and you for yours.
The state should not be sanctioning undue violence against anyone, but that is not the point here. Yes, it needs to be corrected, but it’s not the point. The point is the particular problem with people doing outrageous things, without adequate penalty; not just random joyriding entertainment murderers, but legislators, lobbyists, enforcers, politicians, bankers, businessmen… every Human should be subject to “the right rules,” and that includes any group comprised of humans, especially those supposedly acting on our behalf, in our best interests. “Supposedly.”
But i thoroughly disagree that people who don’t care whether they live or die, would automatically not care about pain. And if they think so, they’ll find out otherwise upon encountering the penalty. Anyone who thinks pain is no big deal, has never found /agony/. Agony is worse than a meaningless life, and worse than death. It’s arguably the worst thing that can happen.
My point is that pain as a punishment, is probably the best we can do, and is certainly better than cessation of pain, through release of death, for someone who doesn’t care if they die, and doesn’t value life.
And so i’ll go back to PainNlife on this one:
If not death (which i’m not supporting)
If not pain (which i feel is the only adequate, viable option)
Then how do you suggest we deal with heinous and completely unjustified acts, such as the particular instances previously referenced?
Do you actually think that we should just… do nothing? Give them a stern talking-to? Let the prisoners decide what happens in their own little isolated microcosm?
No, I’m arguing that a wrong done against an individual is just that. It’s not a wrong done against society, or against any other member within society; if someone murders another person, the victim’s family is equally victimized and should hold the sole authority regarding punishment for the crime. The state should have no right to obligate punishment contrary, or without the consent of those harmed by the crime. Ideally, it’d be nice if the victims could seek retribution personally, thus eliminating this nebulous machine we call the justice system, which is nothing more than a system designed to reduce the need for particular members within it to be involved in all of the components of adjudicating, sentencing, or executing the sentence. Makes it easier to do abominable things that a single individual might not choose to carry forward because of the moral corruption involved in the process itself.
The problem with laws and punishment as a deterrent to crime is that a criminal has no concept of the reality – the gravity, and the severity – of any punishment, no matter how sadistic or cruel, until such time as they encounter it directly and inescapably. There is always the glimmering hope, and even delusion, that one may not get caught, or may not receive the punishment warranted, because everyone thinks they’re special and exempt from the full weight of their responsibility. Because that’s how everyone acts in daily life, whether they know it or not. But the problem is that supporting a capital punishment, one is also negating the value of life.
But let me re-quote my post previously, since nobody seems to have read it:
“Why is it the baseline assumption that the alternative is a comfy prison cell with all the amenities they’ve left behind, and even free health care, free food, etc…?
Why not just a huge pit in the middle of the desert, or on some island, with armed guards to shoot anyone trying to escape?
Less moral compromise that way. Let the prisoners eat each other if they want to.”
No… i certainly did read that part of your post. It’s tantamount to suggesting that people who kill other people just for fun, should be taken to a different place and allowed to do whatever they want and/or can get away with doing. And i disagree.
1) they need to be punished’
2) others need to see this occur, to know that it is a real and horrible possibility
This is the only way to maximize the fear of consequence in a person who “doesn’t care whether they live or die.” Pain is the answer.
But such a policy would not be “tenable” in the current systems.
And i suppose your point about “let the victim’s family choose” has some merit… but some of those families would claim that “God will punish them,” and then “let them get away with it.” Therefore, the offender experiences no penalty, and is free to repeat the same series of actions without any kind of deterrent at all.
There needs to be a system we can actually trust, that actually works. That’s certainly not what we currently have, and it probably won’t ever happen.
Still, freaks like those in question here, need to be told through immense pain, that they should not have done something they can’t undo. The best way to learn the value of permanence, is personal, first-hand experience of severe consequence. Even if they don’t care about /anything/ else, they will definitely care about pain. And if they seem utterly unaffected by pain, then they should be forced to labor for either the victim’s family, or the state, or both. And like PainNlife said: they don’t even deserve to be allowed to taste food.