I keep experimenting with this and that. most of them don’t last more than a day, but this one is working quite effectively. the trick is this:
i guess most of us, like me, feel disconnected with others, the outer world, the society. I thought of include one more person in it – myself. “I am not this” – this is the trick..to think like that. i am not these thoughts, these fears, this depression, i am not the person who is depressed. I am something else, something that’s watching that depressed person. this is not my permanent state of mind or permanent state of self.
and I think that’s quite true too. one day we were this, another day we are that. “I” keeps changing. Buddha also said that at the root there is no self. anyways, i am not going to argue on its validity; the point is it may work. so why not give a try.
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So in other words Descartes would say “I think, therefore I am not”?
Sure, I’ll give it a try. Everything else about the world seems upside down to me, so why not the cornerstone of existence? It could only help 🙂
Admitting to the self that the self does not exist, can be quite the risky maneuver. Careful with those “core hax.”
You exist, therefore you have life, therefore, I care about you. All. I only have two arms but I will keep reaching out to everyone who needs a hand.
maybe why its working on me is because i actually seem to believe that there is no real self. maybe on trust in Buddha, idk
Well, according to what i’ve heard/read, Buddha was quite the trickster. He loved to perplex people, and to say things that would stop people in their tracks and blow their minds.
To say to a person who exists, and has a lifetime of establishing identity, that: “at the core, there is no self…” is just profound.
It’s entirely possible that Buddha was the original troll.
Actually, i think that statement has something to do with personal expectations and/or potential.
There is no “self.” There is a “you,” and “you” does exist… but there is not a “who i am supposed to be” at the core. In fact, it would be just as true to say “in the core, there is /only/ self…”
But i’m sure more people would take that the wrong way.
Would you ever hang out? Think about it man, I’ll take the trip. That goes for anyone, I’ll make the trip to show you, you have a friend, who doesn’t know you at all, but cares.
I believe he had seen this, that’s why he said this. but yes, you may well be right too.
#ifoundmeandyou that is an amazing thing.
but you are now not the same as you were in your childhood, right? the way you used to think has totally changed. i think its memory that binds things to make them look connected, but not the real experience..it keeps changing
i don’t know if this is what you meant, but since we are happy or depressed due to circumstances and not ourself, we can say like you said: i am not a depressed guy, i am guy – who in this circumstance is depressed. And there goes all the difference between being depressed today and hoping for better days afterwards, or identifying yourself as depressed and therefore refuse even subconsciously to find the path to happiness.
I’m the second kind of guy and i think it was @clevername or @cyranide that reported a citation from Star Trek with the same concept. I wish i could buddhaing myself..
@benna yup, you may take it that way too. whatever works. but originally what i meant is not for a better future either, that’s again hope – a property of self, but simply denying the present as ur true self, and taking this ‘changed-circumstance-changed-me’ as proof of that.
Haha that was me, Trekkie til the bitter end.
I do see the value in minimizing ones own existence. I guess it’s almost like stepping back to a cosmic perspective, seeing that you are just 1 speck in a much bigger reality, and then being able to face your life from the outside.
But yeah, as Kirk would say, it’s the individual that matters, “if we lose that we lose ourselves. I want my pain I NEED MY PAIN” haha
Still, I think if you’re at the point of self-destruction, go with whatever trick works. Even if it’s just a brief moment of meditation to take you out of your personal hell.
Haha I see we have Star Trek fans here 🙂
You’ll want to start this at 3:11 if you want to avoid the boring ones at the beginning…Curse of the red shirt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sQ4cylk-mE
I think it was along the lines of trying to make people think, and distinguish between who/what you actually are, and the things you have experienced, to form who you become.
We are not born with identity; we are born with a nameless consciousness. Everything after that is added to the core, built on top of “the true self.” Who/what/why we become whatever we grow into, is not necessarily the same thing as “the core.” There is a self, but most people don’t seem to realize or make the distinction between self and non-self. Most people identify as things they own or experiences which have shaped them. It’s difficult to articulate exactly what i’m trying to say here…
But i feel like i get it. There is a difference between the “core self,” and the total identity we “learn” throughout experiencing our lives. At the “core,” the thing most people perceive as “self,” is absent.
But if you flip that notion, then, in the path of elimination of attachment, desire, and suffering… how might one embrace the chance to be alive to actually live?
Without attachment, without desire, without suffering… what is the use of being only the core? To prevent attachment, and therefore disengage from the purpose of life itself (which is obviously “to live”)?
I find it… paradoxical to “pursue” or “follow” buddhism. It seems to carry a strong undertone of rejecting existence. I suppose that’s all fine and good, but i don’t think anyone should skip the living part and go straight to buddhism. I think we have to experience what we’re supposed to be detaching from, to fully appreciate just what exactly it is that we’re detaching from, and why. We’re certainly not born to ignore the world. We’re born to live. It’s really that simple. The problems come from being unable to live (in the sense of “living life,” not just mere survival).
I tend to lean toward the tantric side of things. There can be no purpose or appreciation, without experience. In order to understand and appreciate how and why suffering comes from desire… one must both desire, and suffer. The self, defined by what affixes to the core through experience, must first be built, in order to be understood, and distinguished from the core. If the core comes into being, but never becomes attached to anything, then it cannot understand the nature of attachment, desire, suffering… or even appreciate the dismantling of “self.”
“we are a way for the cosmos to experiencing itself”. (here i’ll be talking from buddhist point of view) yes, the world and the life, as we know it, is called ‘maya’/virtual world in buddhism. and buddhism is absolutely anti-life, as the first noble truth itself is: life is suffering. and they seek ‘nirvana’ which is a state of non-existence. but then is life not suffering? and is not to suffer pointless as we are not getting anywhere from it. they also approve reincarnation – cycle of life i.e., of suffering going on and on…still with no point. so why be life-supportive, life-affirming?
i may be wrong, but your “core self” looks like something like soul. but as they say, in nirvana that isn’t there either. it is not really nameless, it too has some (changable) characteristics and it is the thing that moves between reincarnations. but it is also not permanent.
if there IS a way out, why not take it?
the point of experiencing existence, must then be to appreciate non-existence; for without that appreciation, why would anyone seek it?
But then we have a paradox: the want of non-existence is desire… desire for lack of suffering… but to want lack of suffering, causes even more suffering, until one is able to not exist. However, “nirvana” can only be achieved through a path that sheds all desire. It would seem that one must not even desire lack of suffering or lack of existence, in order to attain that state of being.
In other words: one must want to live… in order to Not want to live.
The experience must be experienced, in order for the desire of it to be eliminated, and for the even desire of elimination, to be eliminated.
Suffering, in and of itself, is not necessarily bad; but Excess suffering, to the point that it stifles and impedes development and advancement, is certainly bad. Life is suffering, but we must experience it, in order to appreciate it, and in order to know what is excess (self) and what is not (core).
That’s the trick of the Buddhas! they first tempt you to take this path, and then in the end makes you to get rid of that final temptation too. but atleast along the path all other properties are eliminated. but many of them, if they are living under a teacher/master, loose this temptation somewhere inbetween the way itself. they no longer need it to go ahead.
you know, nirvana isn’t really the end product of this way of clearing mind. even in an absolutely clear mind it may never happen in his whole lifetime, or it may happen the very next moment. its probabilistic. that’s why i often wonder if it has some relation to findings of quantum mechanics.
…and that’s a very interesting idea that has occurred to me, but i’ve never seen it verbalized: the relation between what can be perceived through buddhism/taoism, and what we now call quantum mechanics.
There is a reason Taoists refer to “The Way.” It just… Is. And you can see it in many aspects of the world, by simply observing.
What we now call quantum mechanics, was likely grasped and glimpsed in a more naturalistic and primitive way, thousands of years ago, by monks… but they weren’t really able to communicate it so precisely, for various mostly obvious reasons.
Indeed. what they found by actual real experience is now uncovered through mathematics. that’s how religion and science have always worked. but unlike with Christianity where science served as against religion, here it may serve FOR religion…strengthening people’s faith instead of destroying it.
you know, i was so overwhelmed by this idea when it first occurred to me, a year ago or so, that in excitement I made up a whole universe theory, its origin, working and end, based on this relation b/w quantum mechanics and buddhism 😀
lol. It’s nice when huge things like that just suddenly occur to you.
I’ve spent lots of time and energy exploring the outer limits of my perceptions… and at some point i realized that i needed to “get back to the matter at hand,” and focus on what is actually occurring in my realm of influence and experience. The universe is huge, and i don’t have time to fully understand it. Plus, Buddha was all about focusing on ‘now,’ rather than spending ‘now’ on worry of ‘after.’ That’s much harder to do, than it seems, once you’ve had cosmic epiphanies and made correlations that most will never encounter.
As for the universe… i find it perplexing to attempt to hypothesize about what lies beyond its edges, or whether it has edges, or… whether the nothingness is just infinite… or… i mean, infinity is just a concept. How can infinity /actually/ exist? There would have to be a limitless source, and it would have to be “located” within an even larger container, within an even larger container, within an even larger container… or, it has a limit, and existence only occurs within its bounds. But then, what happens beyond the realm of existence? Where is the realm of existence? What is all this? lol.
Meanwhile, back in a single human life on earth… i would like to reduce suffering and increase enjoyment, while i’m alive to experience anything. I find it difficult to actually manifest that, due to how many other people i encounter, who would have almost no capacity for understanding most of what i think about on a regular basis.
It used to give me a kind of intoxicating joy to think about such great questions. and even more when, like yours, they were unsolvable. but then, at a period of time, i realized how hypocritic all this is. I am thinking great things while my own life has become a crap. and so the sides were flipped. but you know, compared to that this one is so small, so confined. i have less control on things, and upon that comes the “other effect”. but i can’t stop thinking. a lot of “hope” is still there – hope to merge the practical with theoretical. but i don’t know for how long it will remain there and keep me away from facing my darkness.
I’m similar in that way. I feel like it’s a waste of time to ponder things i’ll never be able to know or understand.
Hope to merge practical with theoretical… ironically enough, that falls right in line with my recent realization of the importance of integrating subsistence and advancement.
Rather than separating, endlessly categorizing and differentiating… we all should be /integrating/ what is necessary, useful, and enjoyable, while reducing as much as possible that should not occur. We should all be working together, toward the same goal… but due to the systems in place, long-established before our arrival, it is practically impossible to get everyone to agree on a general direction.
I still believe there is a “right way” of doing things, a “correct” approach, which can manifest in widely varied ways, which can remain compatible with “the other,” so that we can all literally get along. It’s just that there are too many who are already too heavily invested, entrenched in indoctrination and convention, and so conflict will persist. There’s a right way, but it only works if everyone uses it, which i suppose is another paradox. If you’re forcing people to do things certain ways, or even have a similar but compatible approach, then you’re still “controlling” everyone else. People should be controlling themselves, but we’re all coming from different perspectives, learned to value different things, for different reasons, motivated toward different actions, by different beliefs.
So idk. I just want to do whatever i feel is right, and not have to suffer too much. It hasn’t worked out so well, so far. I’ll probably give up someday, but i guess i’m not yet convinced i can’t make it better before it’s over.
btw what do you mean by ‘exploring the outer limits of perception’? u mean u practiced tantra and all that? Wow
I’m not really sure of a better way to convey what i meant by ‘exploring the outer limits of perception.’ Although, according to wikipedia’s first type of definition for “traditional” tantra, i would say that is somewhat accurate.
When i was about 19, i discovered “Chan” Buddhism, through a very wise and capable martial arts practitioner, as well as some fundamental movement and life principles conveyed through kung fu and tai chi. The depth and manner of the profound wisdom conveyed through these various teachings, both unified and accelerated the development of my body and mind. I wish i could have stayed there longer, but life’s currents flowed me elsewhere. Those teachings stayed with me, more the fundamental concepts, than the actual techniques, but have always colored my approach to all aspects of my life, ever since. So you could say that i “practiced tantra,” in the form of elaborating my perception of profound and copious matters, especially relating to principles of reality, as well as liberation through the cultivation of “chi,” and control of both the mind and body. At some point there was also what could be called “spiritual expansion,” though that was never my focus or my intent. I wanted enough knowledge and enough control, to feel free… to feel capable… to know that whatever was required, i could do it, and without being restricted or impeded by fear. Of course, completely eliminating fear is no small task, and may not be entirely possible for most people in this world.
But i mean exactly what it says: “exploring the outer limits of perception.” Familiarizing myself with all that i am, exploring all i can perceive, and expanding and cultivating whatever my existence should be called… whether it’s “self,” or something else. Knowing what i can and can’t perceive, assessing my potential, evaluating how much i might be able to dedicate to the pursuit of any goal, or every goal…
And honestly, so much of it is just ineffable. It’s nearly, if not entirely, impossible to verbalize. And so, realizing that limit as well, i’ve strove for cultivating the precision and breadth of my verbalization.
But these days, i’ve fallen quite far from where i peaked, and sometimes i marvel at memories of my former self, as if i once were “superman.” I never thought i was all that amazing. I always knew there were stronger, faster, smarter, more developed people out there… but compared to now, i was practically a living god. lol.
It seems… humorously tragic, i suppose. I think that i was actually on the right path, but that this world, or at least, the environment i became trapped in, was/is not compatible with “the right path.”
Anyway, i probably wouldn’t have claimed to have practiced tantra, and it certainly wasn’t done in a spiritual or theological context, but in a more personal way. I suppose i would have just called it personal development and expansion. I knew i needed a better developed self, in order to better live my life, and i just happened to stumble onto some profound knowledge at a somewhat early age, and ran with it.
It’s unfortunate that all that effort never translated into acquisition of surplus resources, which is apparently the most important thing in this day and age.
oh man that was awesome…and tragic, sadly. maybe i can relate, not with your level ofcourse but on my smaller level. when i was into buddhism i tried meditation. and atleast on two occasions i had experience of “getting out of bounds of mind”. in those moments i felt like i can do anything, as if i’m invincible, and free. but this invincibility used to last only for few minutes. but it gave me conviction that i am not totally bound in my mind and that there is something beyond its limits too, and that if i put right effort i can slowly slowly increase this duration..finally for 24 hours.
But i guess i had not realized the power of mind yet. i was just flying in the air of hope and optimism, not realizing that to achieve actual things i have to come on ground and face the beasts there. and when i fell (i think i should have landed by choice) then i realized why people call life hard and why buddhists and hindus so fear it.
although i feel that the environment and people around are part of this game and they also need to be conquered.