this is more to do with the comments than the post itself, i tried to write a comment but it didnt seem to post, so ill just put it here, as you can see its long, perhaps theres a word limit on comments? either way after writing so much i would be irritated to just delete it
Wow, this one really blew up didnt it? Just a couple of pints id like to add after reading all the comments.
Firstly is the discussion over ways to help, @salt you know i agree with what you say regarding more serious members need more serious help instead of lighthearted, yes, you are right. When someone is on their last legs and coming here for serious help, one liners and humour will drive them away, at such times only in depth shit has any chance of working. and i know a good few serious people would have been driven away by inadequate replies they were given when they came here and quite possibly went on to kill themselves. and it haunts me, same way as every confirmed suicide does (and i remember watching the news when one of those was reported, tho didnt make the connection to this place) every day i think, if only i had been here, if only i had taken the time to not leave the sight, if i hadnt been so self absorbed trying to get my own shit together then maybe i could have been here to give the indepth talk that may just have kept someone from leaving, and every confirmed death, even ones you dont mention (i believe lon3spartan was confirmed, tho i may be mistaken?) keep me up at night because i didnt try hard enough. and that tends to take away my desire to shoot the breeze on here on “fun” posts because the hardcore members need hardcore help.
That being said its a narrow point of view. there are more than one type of member here, alot of people struggle day to day and come here for some small bt of reliefe where they can discuss topic that bring them joy, whilst also being surrounded by people who know their struggle, in that sence the light hearted stuff keeps them grounded and quite possibly stops psyhotic breaks that could end fataly and sometimes it just gives them a reason to keep going, to put down a knife because they have somewhere to belong. and in that sence members such as @rocketman and @Hazy and indeed all the others are doing a wonderful job of keeping alot of people going, merely with their humour or paintings or whatever, so in a way they do more good here than i do. the problem arrises when you have to differentiate between what user needs what type of response and that can change each day of the week, a user that needs to laugh today might need an indepth and heartfelt conversation the next, we simply have to be vigilant and direct a user into which catagory we think works best. there is no right or wrong way to help on here @salt we just have to be aware of which help to offer. and often we fail and often we fuck up and often we get it wrong and someone else pays the price, and every confirmed suicide and lost member weighs on me but that doesnt mean i blaim the ones who misread the help he needed, merely lament that those who could have given the help that may have worked were not there at the right time, tho you, salt were there for at least on confirmed and ive no doubt if there was anything that could have worked you would have found it.
Next point, letting go of a hand for some people and keeping tight to others? fuck that, in my time here ive only ever let go (conciously) of a handful (excuse the pun) of people and that was only when i ran out of every thing i could think of, and thankfuly the last time i gave a blessing of departing was to you, and we know how thats turned out. I understand that some people are just ready to go, and nothing we can do can help, but that doesnt mean we should give up until the bitter end, where theres life there is hope, untill they take their method in hand and set it in motion there is always a chance to save them, no matter how remote a chance it is there, if we can find it. so i believe we should never let go of a hand, until the door of death, regardless of what it may do to our own mental health.
with regards to the current regime of zero tolerance to posts. by and large i agree with you, hell i made posts that had no buisness being here, be they detailed method related or a couple hundred comment long post that was just members telling jokes, but that was all in the old days. I do agree there needs to be more discression with regards to posts that get deleted, some posts might infringe upon the rules but shouldnt be deleted as that post may be necessary for the poster, or even the comunity itself, so by and large i agree that alot of posts should be left and people in charge of deleting them need to step their game up. however there are some posts that havbe come here that should not be left up, and ill happily say it that i have reported a handful of posts in my day, ones that had no buisness being here. only one of those was method based and the reason for it was the method was just too damn accessible, and far too detailed, it was more of a how too guide than anything that could have been remotely close to a good thing to let desperate suicidal people access to. now that was a good good while ago, and i dont know if that user came back, but it was not a decission i took lightly, and i understood what having their post deleted could have done to that person but allowing detailed, how too guids on here is incredibly dangerous, i dont mind discussing methods, and will happily do that but i draw the line at tying the noose, general posts about methods should be left but the more serious ones shoud be discussed only with members capable of dealing with that information and not blasted out so anyone having a bad da can walk to their pharmacy, pick up everything they need there and have it over with in less than an hour. by all means discuss it over email but this place has rules for a reason, to protect its members, now do i believe in all the rules? hell no, and i often skirted them many a time but the basic rule of methods (while it should be relaxed) still has to hold some sway, and as for taking on more moderators? why dont you voulenteer, youd be pretty good at it.
Last point i think, banning members, you mentioned a user who was volatile to other members, if he is the one i remember, then his presence was a danger, if not for stronger members his comments alone would have pushed me over the edge, and it came damn close, tho there is a chance that was a different user, a slim chance but a chance none the less. now if a user like that could nearly push someone like me over the edge (granted i was a complete and utter mess back then) do you really think he had a right to be here? i understand lashing out, i understand hurting other, but doing so deliberatly and taking enjoyment out of it has no place here, if when he was banned he killed himself? i dont know but he had a chance, many users tried and failed to talk to him. people who come here hurting everyone else, if they cant be helped fast need to be quarantined because if not the damage they can do is as fatal as it is immense, this is a place of saftey and peace, often its distruptive but no one who comes here should ever be pushed further twards killing themselves, the good of the members, each and everyone of them has to be priority, anyone threatening the mental health of anyone on here should be dealth with as quickly as possible, if its not possible to get them to not be an asshole to people who clearly cant handle it then they have to be removed
I think thats all i wanted to say, a bit longer than i intended, my bad
Peace & Love,
Procel
P.S. I dont mean to be so active recently, ill keep posts like this to the minimum
27 comments
You made some interesting points here. This was well thought out. Personally, I especially appreciate the part where you mentioned that members are here for different reasons. Some have made a rational decision to exit and don’t want or need to be helped out of that.
Short on time, here. Just wanted to leave a quick comment.
@mysteriousvisitor i think its important to realise that while some members may not want help as long as i can get there, they are getting it, they shall shut up and they shall take my help and they shall listen to it, because if they dont im gonna find em and ***** smack them and then they shall listen muahaha! sorry, got carried away. while people may not want help, that doesnt mean they done need it, they just dont know it, help should be given for as long as it can be, and if theres a pint where it hasnt worked to stop them then it has helped to make them not feel so alone and perhaps bring peace, and that alone is worth the effort of reaching out, even if you dont succeed, you have made some difference in someone elses life
They’re certainly nothing wrong with offering help, and since there’s no way to know for sure obviously we should always be kind.
I definitely disagree that I just don’t realize I need help, though. There’s nothing wrong with my ability to make decisions. I make them every day, at work and in every area of my life. One of the things that is insulting (and no, no, I’m not implying that you insulted me. I’m just talking in general) is that simply because someone holds a belief that is contrary to societal standards there is something wrong with them and they need to be “fixed”. No one could ever prove that suicidal ideation is a mental illness because how can you quantify a belief or opinion as an illness?
@mysteriousvisitor It is not the belief that i believe needs fixing as such, its the depression that needs tackling, were a happy person to cheerfully want to kill themselves then i wouldnt want to stand in their way, but was a depressed person to want to kill themselves then i would try and help them fight their depression. in a way, for me, its not about the suicide its more about the depression and often mental tormoil surrounding the suicidal ideation. but would you argue that an oppinion based on faulty logic is wrong? and could you also not argue that depression distorts reality, making it darker than it really is, therefor could you not then argue that if depression distorts reality that the logic being used to derive reality is also distorted and if the logic is distorted then the conclusions you reach are comprimised because you are not opperating from a stable base of perception of the world? im not trying to change your view here, merely would enjoy a discussion on the topic
Actually, to be perfectly honest, I would argue that depression does not distort reality. The definition of depression is subjective and has changed over time and the definition of reality is also subjective. One person may say that their life is too miserable and another person may say “no your life is not that bad” – so who’s reality is correct? I can’t decide for someone else whether or not they are thinking clearly. And it is absolutely not true that everyone who is suicidal has depression. That is a fallacy that we have been brainwashed into believing. If you think about the way suicide was viewed before it was categorized as a mental illness what I’m saying starts to become clearer. Were all of the samurai who killed themselves out of a sense of honor actually depressed? Even the scientific evidence that is used to support the idea that a lot of people who are suicidal are depressed is based on very unreliable post-mortem research that make the mistake of equating correlation with causation.
I’m enjoying the discussion as well.
Oh, and psychological autopsies rely on other people’s view of reality, not that of the deceased.
Thank you for posting this. I’ve been in really rough shape.and way too paranoid and delusional.to leave comments on for my posts much less be of much service to folks here for in depth conversation. About all I’m capable of lately is painting how I want to feel. Last night’s discourse took a lot out of my sails. Not sure why. It just feels what I am doing is pointless if I’m not having some sort of in depth conversation. Which I’m unable to do right now. All I can offer anyone here is a bit of beauty because that is all that is keeping me here right now.
Thank you for.the post this morning. Your words.are as.well 5hought out as ever. I have a lot more I’d like to say but it is largely negative and paranoid and vile. So I’ll just say thank you.
Hwy @hazy, i had a feeling the discourse last night would have that effect on you, im glad your hanging out today. wha you do here is an important thing, not everyone can do deep conversations all the time, its incredibly tiring even for me. we all have different strengths and in order to help here we have to come at problems from a side we are strongest, because if you dont then it can just make things worse. you have many strengths that you imply time after time after time to bring alot of good help to alot of people, what was said last night i believe was that some posts require a differength strength than the one you have, and theres nothing wrong with that because alot of the posts here benefit from the aproach you have. never feel what you do here is pointless, even if you only reach one person then you have a purpose here. be proud of what you do here, no one aproach can work for everyone, but it does work for some and thats more than enough. and ass for everything else you have to say? firstly i implore you to find an outlet for the negative things, you cant have that stuff in you, its like poison to people like you and i and secondly, if you want to get it off your chest then write it all down in an email and send it to this address : crimson – trickle @ hotmail . com
thats my email, we can talk there if you wish
I got nothing. Should have just turned off the fucking computer last night instead I opened my fucking mouth.
Hazy, don’t feel like you always need to engage in deep conversation. It’s obvious that a lot of people here enjoy light-hearted conversation, and your paintings are very, very enjoyable. It would be horribly depressing if the only thing we could ever have are serious conversations. I genuinely hope you get to feeling better.
That bit of beauty is probably helping someone more than you know, Hazy.
A lot of agreeable points here, but I’ve learned this place is better as a way to vent then a crutch. It’s hard to rely on people here when most of the users are at the same place you are. I shouldn’t expect in-depth advice about something that they are probably dealing with them self, and if it’s an issue that seems only I can understand then I can’t expect help there either. That being said it does’nt mean that no one here gives good advice or that anyone here is unreliable, but being on a site where a majority want to and a lot plan to off themselves, you shouldn’t assume you’ll find your reslove here.
@dungeon i agree that this place, has a main function as a place to vent, but i dont think you give the members enough credit, there is alot of smart compasionate people here who can put their problems on hold to help out other members who are in a bad place, and you can find plenty of resolve here when its needed, dont write this place off, its kept alot of people from offing themselves and done more than its share of life changing work in its time. this place has alot to offer and when one is open to it alot of in depth advice, i mean who better to give advice about suicide and related problems than those who go through it themselves every day, while its often hard to follow ones own advice it doesnt mean the advice isnt right the vast majority of the time
Don’t get me wrong I’m not dismissing any of the members here I’m just saying you shouldn’t assume that you’ll get the answer your looking for right off the bat.
@dungeon true, right off the bat its pretty hard to get the answers that are going to work, but you will get them eventually, the trouble is, some people come here as a last ditch attempt to be saved, so in some cases, reasonable or not you have to aim for a perfect strike. as salt says, people die here, while it has a light side, that fact cant be ignored. so reasonable or not its important to try and get it right
What you say is true…but I see the bonds formed here…it’s obvious it’s all some have so that human element overrides all else sometimes,including logic, I think for some people.
Hey Proc, thanks for that detailed & thoughtful response. A great example of what I’m talking about… when someone takes the time to give a post a lot of thought and comment indepth. Whether the poster agrees or not, it shows that people are paying attention, and isn’t that what most desperate souls need, for someone to pay attention?
So now on to what you said. I think you & I have basically the same opinion, although you have a much nicer way of wording it. I’m just sick of a lot of things I’ve witnessed here recently. Things regarding souls in distress who are either brushed aside or attacked. My last post is truly “my last post” so I didn’t hold back on my parting feelings of disappointment before I head into fair winds and following seas (ps for anyone just joining us, that is not a metaphor for suicide; I’m genuinely starting a new chapter… or should I say re-starting the old chapter where I left off before tragedy brought me here 6 years ago).
But to clarify, since a lot of people put words in my mouth, I wanted to say here in your thread that I agree with basically everything you posted above.
The main point of my post was to draw light to the fact that non-rule-breaking posts are often deleted without bothering to clear up miscommunication. Deleting someone’s post is the cruelest thing you can do to them, so save it for only if you really hate someone. If you’re simply offended by someone’s post or think it “breaks a rule”, then kindly tell them while offering your hand in assistance. 9 times out of 10, the OP will apologize for not knowing the rules of play.
I still never got an answer why anyone would delete my April 17 post.
This got me thinking of all the other farewell posts that I’ve seen deleted over the years, posts that, like mine, didn’t break any rules but simply projected a forcefulness that was probably perceived as a threat to the sensitive members here. And I pointed out, as the old timers confirmed from out of the woodwork, that the old suicideproject wasn’t so passively-aggressively reactive. And instead of reporting/deleting/banning people, members were more likely to talk things out to an amicable resolution.
The spinoff topic about silliness and games was bizarre and elicited a lot of defensive postures. At no time did I say that people should stop acting silly, and in fact I stressed that it should continue to lighten overall spirits. But as you wisely said:
“the problem arises when you have to differentiate between what user needs what type of response”
That’s the key. Use silliness and games when you know the person will respond to it. But Randall and other suicide hotline volunteers back me up here, you do NOT respond to a suicidal stranger by cracking jokes. Always listen to their tone first, and that will tell you exactly how to proceed if you really want to help.
On more than one occasion I’ve been disgusted at how someone comes here with a very serious, painful issue discuss, and members hijack the thread with completely off topic silliness. In the case of Beaubri, she politely told people that off topic silliness was not appreciated. But in most cases I see the OP simply bow out. Especially if they’re new here, they assume that nobody is taking them seriously.
Bottom line, like you said, if our intent is to offer help, don’t just throw the same rope at everyone because perhaps they need a tourniquet instead.
I also want to comment on “letting go of a hand”. Yes, that’s total bullshit. You can back off if you see your help is getting nowhere, but I’ve always hated it when people respond to a cry for help with some terse “May you find peace” crap.
Like you mentioned, I still have daily regrets over what I didn’t say to lonelytear. I never gave up on him, not for a second. My strategy was to talk to him until he got drunk on hotel booze and passed out safely. I bet wrong. Very wrong. I knew he was serious about doing it, but I just took the wrong strategy by being passive and hoping for the best. The line I kept repeating in the other thread is something I’ll say again because I feel that people don’t swallow it (as we saw with the fervent denial of the 3 suicides I mentioned). PEOPLE DIE HERE. PEOPLE. DIE. HERE.
So fun & games is cool. But be aware that this is still a war zone.
@ Salt, i agree, whether or not a person agrees with what you have to say t should still be said, as you put it, what we need most is to know we are being listened to and that we arent alone.
haha yes, its one thing ive always loved about you, your nearly always right (in the same mindset as me 😉 ) tho sometimes i can be more diplomatic. but yes, i have noticed that too, its the main reason im active at them moment, in order to counteract that brushing aside, but i believe more users will rise to take our place, and i can slip back into passive watching. i think the main problem is the recent exodus of alot of the users who made sure it didnt happen. clevername, being a main one. this sight is going to miss you buddy, but i understand your need to move to greener pastures, ill do my best to fill the void until the new us shows up lol.
yes, it is worrying the amount of posts that are being deleted without a reason, im not sure if i saw your post that was deleted but i know you dont break the rules, which, if you and none of the others broke the rules signifies something i find worrying, and may make this place rather dangerous, i may be jumping at shadows but having seen the changes slowly happen im wary for the future of this place should it contnue alon the way its going.
yes, the silliness has its place here, an important one, but as you say it can drive some users away when it takes over, theres a time for playing and theres a time for working
Brother you cant take on lonelytear’s death who else tried? i certainly didnt, who else took the time to get to know him and reach out and be there for him? letting go is never the right thing but what you did for him wasnt letting go and it wasnt wrong. you tried to save him. it doesnt matter that you didnt succeed because it wasnt your choice wether he died or not, it was his choice, you cant take this burden, its natural to feel blaim, that maybe if you had done things differently he could have been saved, but maybe that would have only made him misserable, i read his post, you sent me a link, and it moved me we lost a great person and i didnt get to meet him properly but i know one thing, you gave him the best thing anyone could give another person. you gave him your support, you gave him friendship and despite the fact he died he didnt die alone, because you were there with him, you held his hand and comforted him and he died in peace, when you cant pull someone back it hurts alot, but when you stay there and make them at pace, despite how it rips you apart afterwards… well that shits beyond words man
Thanks big time, P. I guess you’re right that he got something out of it… after all he did finally open up, and I think that’s everyone’s right when they die… to find a “confessor”. He wasn’t here long, only like midnight to 3 am, so I definitely don’t blame anyone for not jumping in the conversation.
Clevername! And how about RealTalk, and the great Duke of Marmalade? I think some folks are still here under new names, but I can’t keep track. We should have a SP user masterlist so we can follow all the name changes over the years.
I hope to come back here one day, not as a “customer” but as one of the “support staff” like you, Dawg (if he’s still around), the occasional nozmoking sighting, and bunches of others who pop in with helpful support for others, even though you guys never ask for help for yourselves. I guess that’s the evolution of a SP lifeform. From a suicidal tadpole to a wise old bullfrog. Just be sure not to croak. Wow I just came up with that one.
Yea but for now, I’m going to focus on some cool new life changes, and that means stepping away from the old me as much as possible. I still plan on having a suicide survivor party in my castle overlooking the Rhine one day, and anyone who’s still alive is invited. I’ll serve peanut butter & nutella finger sandwiches so you won’t want to miss it 🙂
I think, if we know the title of a post, we can look for it in Google’s cache. I’ve done searches with the title and author… or phrases from the post/comments if I remember enough, and have gotten some hits. Not sure if it’s 100%, but I’ve had some success.
@Salt, in a short time, i have no doubt you reached him, just has he has reached you, in you he lives on.
I would love to have a master list, see who logs in, whos doing better, whos doing worse it would be cool if it were possible.
You coming back as a wise old timer would indeed be a treat for future whipersnappers around here
i think its great what your doing man, really it is, movin onto new things is always a good thing around here. haha im definitely coming , show ye guys how to party :p
My Apologies for not being around more. Believe me, I want to be but there just aren’t enough hours in the day.
@Salt (for everyone, really) – for your future endeavors, I leave you with this thought … a lyric from an obscure (but insanely talented) band called Dark Matter – the album is called Terminal Endeavor and the song “Monochrome”:
“This window you look from
has been broken into
the wall that was there crumbles in your view
Don’t stand still,
tempt your mind,
and if you look you will find:
Everything Flows …
and nothing stays the same;
In Monochrome, Life will fade.
Unless you change
Change
Ch-ch-ch-Change!
If you wish for something else
Cuz only you know
the cards you’ve been dealt
Change
or else you’ll take a losing bet,
sit back do nothing
and that’s what you’ll get
Change!”
All the best to you Salt – if you have my email, feel free to keep me posted on your progress or just to talk in general 🙂
@Procel – heartfelt and humble thanks for picking up my slack – you ROCK bro 🙂
grateful dawg
… Oh, almost forgot – I’m RSVPing to the party now … but you’ll have to cover my travel costs 😛
broke dawg
Salt I want to make this very clear to you that I am not the one that got your post deleted. I am bowing out of this fucking shit torn before I lose my fucking mind. I can’t believe my own fucking mind right now. I need to just stfu sometimes.
Hazy, I only thought it might’ve been you for a fleeting moment when you said the picture scared the shit out of you. Then I remembered obviously if you took the time to make that wonderful painting, it wasn’t you. My wording following that was probably confusing. What I meant to say was if paranoia scared the shit out of you, and you know me, I imagine some paranoid stranger out there would’ve deleted the post for absurd reasons.
Having given more thought to the whole sordid affair, and knowing human nature, I’m sure the guilty party was not a stranger. I know I’ve picked up more than one silent hater on this site, simply because I was such good friends with killswitchon, our outspoken suicidal laureate who had a way of cutting to the quick in a way that makes me look like Mr. Rogers. I remember reading a post by that hater which slammed me, and I was like “wtf dude” until I saw it lumped me with kso. Whatever. And btw if you attack my friends then you might as well attack me, too. Long story short, I’m quite sure my post deletion was from a sourpuss hater out there in conjunction with the admin’s general apathy or weariness with playing mommy around here. SP Admin, if you feel like setting the record straight, feel free to chime in as to why so many harmless posts have been deleted lately. Or don’t. I’ve said my peace, and maybe people will be less inclined to cry wolf if they caught my point. I don’t really care about my own posts getting deleted, but I am terribly bothered by actual suicidal people whose desperate words are cast aside like yesterday’s toilet paper. Hazy, I know you are compassionate toward everyone and wouldn’t participate in that sort of shit. I’m sorry that it even crossed my mind.
I should add, in a more humorous tone, that killswitchon took a ton of heat for posting pics of his shirtless bodacious bod, even thought I thought his pics rocked and actually inspired me to find my abs. My own shirtless pic was a bit of a nod toward kso, even though I fear he may be long gone. Of course I didn’t even have the guts to show any fucking nip, so kso is still the reigning champion of male suicide porn around here. Until Costy comes back.
This has been an insightful post and I am afraid to add anything new…
But I will say that since I joined this forum about 7 weeks ago I have been making steady progress in my life…
This place serves as a surrogate life for all the lies and insults people tell me everyday and as a place where I can express my feelings.
I wish I could restart my life…. That why they have forums like these.
I wish everyone here well.