Me

circular reasoning is logically fallacious because it breaks causality. An effect cannot produce itself prior to the cause existing, which means something has to either exist, prior to the effect, to act as its cause, OR, the cause must spontaneously, instantaneously manifest both itself and the effect, simultaneously (hint: this almost never happens).

Often, there are many causes to which any (most?) effects can be attributed, but they all resulted from “cause,” in accordance with “causality,” as a product of prior existing circumstances and/or conditions.

Also, i will grant CDL’s assertion: those who believe prayer is a useful practice, do seem to experience a placebo effect from doing so.

However, my counter-assertion is that there is actually a better way.

The problem is that people who work on belief-systems, will almost never abandon or modify their current belief system, without being shown a better /belief system/. When in fact, “belief systems” are a part of the problem.

It would be better to remove the potential for detriment from lack or loss of belief, and to adopt a new approach or perspective that yields better motivation based on realism (aka “truth”), rather than relying upon motivations of a fantastical and unrealistic nature (aka “deception”).

A “believer,” is only willing to make significant self-alterations, when one belief system can be replaced with another… but that doesn’t address the issue of requiring a belief system in the first place.

Let’s remove the need for a “belief system” entirely, and then fill all that space with a deeper and more complete understanding of reality, so that we can learn and understand exactly how to most efficiently and effectively modify it, among cooperation with everyone who sees the value of such a more “radical” approach.

Belief systems are a huge factor in why so much of the world is so wrong. And it’s not so much about whose belief is best, but more about how people who interpret the whole subjective experience through “belief filters,” tend to act on their beliefs. So much has been so wrong for so long, we have to be willing to consider that the most commonly held beliefs, are most likely the root of the problem… and then even further, that having a plethora of competing belief systems, none of which are rooted in reality, is probably the biggest part of the problem.

We need to get as many people out of that belief-dependence as possible, and then unify everyone who can understand, so that we can apply our collective energy, through action, to the right points, to change most of what needs changing, and in the best possible ways. We need to reconfigure the world, to best facilitate those who have managed to break free from the ancient and fallacious, conventional indoctrination mold.

“True_Love:
Jesus saves
Jesus loves you”

^perfect example of what i mean by those who cannot cognate outside their own proverbial “box.” Everything MUST be interpreted through those filters, and everything that cannot safely pass through those filters, is discarded, or stowed away in a vault, where all the stuff you don’t want to think about, goes.

I don’t think “true love” actually exists, either. But i suppose the closest we can get to anything called “true love,” is close enough that the term is still fair… even if it’s technically incorrect.

But Jesus… Jesus died a very long time ago. He was just a man, not a god, not magic. Just a man who knew his place and saw the world through more realistic filters than other people, but was still (apparently) deeply entrenched in the most prominent environmental filters of his time. He saw THROUGH them, without eliminating them… which i think is fairly impressive, and represents a valuable mind. But he no longer exists, just like all the other 100+ billion people who lived and died, and no longer exist.

@lorax:

Sure, why not. 😉

He who has ears, let him hear… especially what Fro-not-so-zen just said. Always listen to that guy.