‘Pearls Before Swine’ by Stephan Pastis (May 6, 2012)
I’m not looking for advice at all since I have zero motivation to improve my lot in life. I’m merely writing this to ***** and vent and commiserate with any potential like-minded souls that might feel the same way while I’m still here.
I have no money. No job. And only got a high school diploma. I am 34 years old and am living with my parents, whom I am entirely dependent upon for material support. If they were to pass away (heaven forbid) or kick me out, I would be completely screwed. However, the fact that I am a burden to them does not motivate in the slightest to make any effort to improve my life, but it does motivate me to kill myself. And I will kill myself. Probably sooner rather than later. The main reason I haven’t done so already is because 1)my parents have supported me up to this point; 2)I had some things that I still enjoyed that made it worth (eventually) getting out of bed each day; 3)because I fear dying – not death (so much) – dying. I am certain that the process of dying is excruciatingly painful. I believe that is why all living things are motivated for self-preservation. Because death is one giant stick waiting to smack every living thing in the ass when they die. That’s why most people regret trying to kill themselves the second after they do so; this is common among “jumpers.” It’s because the human body is hardwired to fight against the agony of death. Even if someone (like myself) has basically every reason in the world to end it all, it is still a difficult and fearsome thing to do. That’s why suicide is often most successfully accomplished on impulse. If you give your conscious mind or your instinctual body, too much time to think about the act of dying they rebel, in much the same way a person deprived of oxygen will instinctively struggle against suffocation, even when unconscious.
So, yes, I fear death, but that fear alone is not what prevented me from already killing myself. I don’t believe in heaven or hell or any kind of afterlife. I imagine death as an eternal sleep, beyond thought, beyond time. For me, death is like that space between waking and sleeping. Death is nothing more than the permanent end of all thought and sensation. The end of all possibility, whether that be positive or negative. But dying, even the relatively quick and reliable method I have settled upon, seems terrifying. If I had a ricin pill I could swallow or, better yet, some other drug I could take that would make the process of dying feel like drifting into a peaceful eternal sleep, I would take that in a heartbeat. But I need certainty of completion. That’s why I would never try overdosing on pills; too uncertain. Pills would most likely just ruin my liver or kidneys or give me some other kind of permanent organ damage or brain damage without actually ending my life. And that, I think we can all agree, is a fate worse than death.
I have absolutely no desire to improve my life in any way. Why do I feel this way? Because I hate working, whether it be a 9-to-5 job, starting my own business, or whatever. I completely hate working for any consistent, extended period of time. I also hate school. I’ve hated school since 1st grade all the way through high school. There were some classes I enjoyed, sure. But other than basically art and music, there were never any classes I enjoyed enough or was sufficiently interested in to want to put in the work. I never went to college or technical school because I had no motivation to put in the work. Are there things I want/wanted to do, goals I want/wanted to accomplish? Yes. But there is nothing in this world I enjoy enough that would motivate me to go through the trouble and expense of college/training to achieve. The fact that even if I tried school to achieve my goals, there’s no guarantee that I would be able to do what I set out to do for a living. And, even if I could do something I enjoyed for an income, it might not pay enough to sustain myself. The fact I might have to work an extra job doing something I don’t enjoy (which is basically everything) just to support myself killed the tiny scrap of motivation I might have had to actually try and make something of myself. The necessity of earning money to do things like pay for food or a roof over my head, let alone cover expenses like tuition, books, and whatnot completely drains me of any energy or motivation to pursue those things I might actually enjoy. That’s because I am an inherently lazy person. I can only do something for an extended time if I genuinely enjoy the process or if the reward of such effort is immediate, tangible, and certain. When I’m done expending effort, whether it be on something enjoyable or interesting or something that simply “needs to get done,” I require a certain amount of time unwinding and relaxing. I basically have a personal 80/20 leisure-to-work ratio. I can only tolerate expending a tiny fraction of my time working, even on things I enjoy or that interest me, before I feel the need to pursue my true “passion” (sarcasm) of sitting on my ass. And I’ve always been this way. That’s why I haven’t accomplished much in the way of personal goals, let alone standard life goals (getting a degree, my own place, etc.). I am an inherently undisciplined and lazy person in all things, even those things I love.
Have I been majorly depressed my whole life? Maybe, but I don’t think so because I was happy enough as a kid growing up. I had things that I enjoyed (e.g., drawing, Legos, biking, video games). I had friends. I just absolutely loathed school. And I never cared enough nor had enough discipline to put in large amounts of time seriously pursuing my handful of constructive (i.e., potentially income earning) interests. I am totally content watching tv/movies, browsing the web, jerking off, and getting high. But am completely miserable when I have to work a job or go to school. Things like doing dishes or cleaning around the house, while also tedious and boring, are endurable because once I am done with those types of tasks I am done. But the idea of holding a job, any kind of job, is so miserable for me, because you have to keep going back to that job for several hours at time, again, and again, and again. Day after motherfucking day. Hour after motherfucking hour. I’d rather be dead than have to support myself for a living. Now if I could leech off the system by claiming enough disability to support myself with broadband internet and a decent dwelling, enough food, etc., I’d be fine. Or if I could support myself only working a 4-hr work week, then I’d be fine. But even working 30 hrs a week seems like hell, never mind putting in 40 or more hours per week.
Living off the grid, or like a hunter-gatherer, would never work for me because that “back to nature” lifestyle is even harder, not to mention far more dangerous and uncomfortable, than sticking with a regular job/self-employment. Besides, being homeless or living off-grid is illegal in most places, so even if I were willing to go that route, the system is setup against that, and it would most likely end badly with me winding up in jail or worse.
I just want to coast through life. I have no real ambition. No real passion; nothing that I would be willing to truly sacrifice or climb a proverbial mountain for. There is absolutely nothing in this world I want to toil and struggle for. I have no faith in myself and my rather limited abilities. And I have no faith in the universe; i.e., I have no faith that if I “gave life a chance” things would work out and that I would see the real beauty and possibility that’s waiting out there. Everywhere you go life is hard, it’s just a matter of degrees. There is no easy, there are only different flavors of hard. I find that completely demotivating.
I know my outlook is totally unfair, immature, entitled, and that I don’t have a moral or ethical leg to stand on. But none of that changes how I feel.
All my other problems basically stem from my utter distaste for work. What are some of my other problems?
- Sexual frustration. I have had sex, but that was over ten years! ago, and I never had a real girlfriend. On a side note: My last, all-too-brief positive experience with the opposite sex did motivate me to try harder and made showing up at work (back when I was employed) far easier. I never had so much energy in my life!, especially on a job. That was the first and last time I willingly worked overtime. But once things ended, working became as miserable and painful as it was before. In fact, it was even worse, because I was pretty depressed after things ended. All this is to say that if I had a girlfriend, a fuck buddy, whatever, maybe I’d be more motivated to give a damn, but since my situation precludes having a girlfriend, a fuck buddy, or any kind of physical contact with an appealing member of the opposite sex, I have no motivation to improve my lot.
- Health problems. I suspect I might have some type of bowel cancer, but with no money and no insurance there’s nothing I can do about it.
- Limited opportunities for fun, exciting, new life experiences, like travel, since I can’t afford anything.
- Myriad inconveniences and set-backs. E.g., I have had some major hardware failures that I couldn’t get replaced or fixed because I have no money.
- Isolation. No friends. It’s hard to have a social life when you have no money to go out and do stuff, and no motivation. No one else can relate and I can’t really relate to anyone. Most people are too healthy and well-adjusted and motivated for me to really relate to except in the most compartmentalized way. E.g., I can talk about movies with someone if we share similar tastes in movies, but would otherwise probably have nothing else in common with that person. In the service of full-disclosure I am rather asocial by nature, so out of all my many problems, this one is the least of them.
All of this ultimately stems from my lack of resources, which stem from lack of discipline and motivation to earn my way in this world. But I don’t really care, because for me, having to work 40 or more hours a week to support myself is one of the worst things – if not the worst thing – about life. Aging and mortality are a close second. Everything is a pain in the ass. Life necessitates far more blood, sweat, and tears than I am willing to put in, period.
So that’s my spiel. Now, my sole non-rhetorical question to anyone who might be reading this is, have you felt this way? If so, please share.
77 comments
Really like that image/cartoon. Dude, please read through the rest of what I’m going to share, but I couldn’t disagree more with this: “I know my outlook is totally unfair, immature, entitled, and that I don’t have a moral or ethical leg to stand on.”
I think you’re brave for admitting what I feel sure millions of people feel. We’re just more cowardly than you, or more easily brainwashed by the global overlords who profit off our sweat and blood and years.
That said, I’d be totally stoked to talk with you more about what you wrote because I really, really enjoyed reading your comments and would love to bounce some ideas/comments back and fort. And even though you say you’re asocial, I’d still like having someone else to talk to who feels about some fundamental life issues as I do. Care to exchange thoughts via email?
Thank you for your comment. It is a great relief knowing there is someone else who can relate.
I am totally down with emailing. I’ve lurked here for a while, but I’ve only joined today, so I’m still getting a handle of all the member features and whatnot. If there’s a way to send someone a private message, you can send me one with whatever email address you want to correspond with and I will do likewise once I figure out how.
By the way, I was so impressed with your post I copy-N-pasted it into an email message to myself so I’d never lose it. Nuf said.
Let’s try this. I definitely want to speak with you, as your ideas are just so freakin’ honest, so unconcerned with convention’s rules, dude you rock. Anyhow, hit my name & see if you are taken to a page with my email address on it. If not, lemme know & I’ll risk sharing it here in public. Cause I believe you’re a man I wanna talk to.
Geez. You’re 34 and you still live with your parents? Are you still a virgin? I can understand why you’re suicidal.
Here’s a radical thought: Have you ever considered “living your life”? That would consist of getting a job, earning money, paying your way (as opposed to sponging off your progenitors), and actually doing something worthwhile with your time instead of belly aching about how pointless it all is.
Harsh. I know, reality is like that. For everyone, not just you.
It never gets easy. Life’s a ***** for most people. Whaddya gonna do about it?
I think i’ll have a beer.
C4, for real? That’s your comment on suicideproject.org? Are you trying to add a match to a gasoline patch? You seriously think that tone or that comment is going to transform the OP’s way of thinking? Man.
i wouldn’t take it personally OP, C4 is a chargers fan therefore 1000% less cool than you regardless of how old you are but are still living at your parents. C4’s probably a virgin too, chargers’ fans never get the “V” (victory)
@IamZero; Absolutely. I stand behind every word I wrote. I hate my fucking job but I do it because I need money. Food, shelter, clothing, water, electricity, internet access – all that stuff costs money. Should I pirate these “necessities” from someone else or should I pay for it myself? Should I allow my hatred for the system to turn me into a blood sucking leach that pilfers off of others?
If I don’t want to participate in a paradigm I don’t agree with I can off myself. The alternative is to whore myself out, and work in order to survive. I’m not dead, so you can probably figure out which route I’ve chosen.
Jesus. Complainers annoy me. Make your decision and follow through, accept the consequences of the life you’ve adopted and if you don’t like it FUCKING DO SOMETHING about it.
The Chargers are good though :O They were a playoff team last year and knocked the Bengals out of the playoffs. They will probably make the playoffs again this year.
I’m sorry you hate your job, C4. Sincerely. But not even you can believe that by telling, and rather acridly at that, someone else how to feel, the person is going to feel/think that way. You’ve every right to your perspectives and feelings, but so does everyone else. I’d hoped that would be axiomatic in this environment. Peace.
@C4
Maybe my post was TL;DR, but, yes, I actually have had sex, though it’s been so long I consider myself a born again virgin. And, yes, this state of affairs is a significant part of why I am suicidal. Not that that is either here nor there.
I do live my life. I’m alive. I live. But if by “living [my] life” you mean getting a job and coping. The act of coping has thus far made me want to end it all, and the thought of “doing something worthwhile,” as you put it, still makes me want to end it all. I don’t care that you disagree with my ne’er do well lifestyle. I will live or end my life however I damn well please. Maybe you really think your irritatingly self-righteous brutal truth response was supposed to “snap me back into reality,” but there was absolutely nothing that you have said I haven’t already told myself countless times before. And on top of that, I have heard the exact same argument countless times from countless people whenever this topic would come up elsewhere. I am well aware that nothing in this world is free and that everything that exists exists because of the hard work and sweat of those who were willing to put in the effort. I know that each person should earn his or her way, lest they be a drain on those that support them, be it directly (like in the case of my parents) or indirectly (as in the case of the taxpaying members of society); I get that. However, given the misery involved in pulling my own weight, I just don’t care enough to try, and if push came to shove, I would rather off myself than pull my own weight.
Now, the problem here seems to be a misunderstanding on your part of the intent of this post. I wrote this to vent my frustrations and maybe, in so doing, offer (and possibly receive) some type of comfort that only those who have felt this way can really appreciate. This post was not created as some sort of attempt to excuse or justify either my current attitudes regarding work nor my present lifestyle. As I had previously stated, I am well aware that my “outlook is totally unfair, immature, entitled, and that I don’t have a moral or ethical leg to stand on.” I don’t give a fuck. Your morality/outrage means absolutely nothing to me. I only know that running the rat race, dealing, whatever you want to call it, currently makes me want to kill myself. Doing nothing, while undeniably hellish and miserable in it’s own way, is still far more acceptable than my current alternatives, short of suicide.
That’s deep, man. I have known nearly all of my life that reality is harsh… for everyone. I am also painfully aware that it never gets easy; as I had already made clear. And it is that kind of understanding that brought me to this very place, which, in case you forgot, is called The Suicide Project not Career Builder. My dilemma is that I’ve never found a way to make life’s harshness – especially the harshness of working – less so. And that is precisely why I intend on offing myself. Now, when or if I do kill myself will be whenever the hell I feel like it. Probably when the other proverbial shoe drops. Until that time, I am relatively content (far more so than working full-time, anyway) to continue leeching off my folks and whoever or whatever else will let me leech off them.
It seems like you can carry your own weight and handle your business. Bully for you. But if things are so great on your end, why are you even here? Because I thought this was a place people could share some of the reasons they consider/plan/attempt suicide… regardless of how socially acceptable or unacceptable those reasons might be.
@Anxiety Gardener; Hi.
I suppose that we are who we are today because of our past experiences. We develop perspectives, attitudes, biases, etc. over time – our past molds us.
Your post struck a nerve with me. Like you, I was listless, apathetic and unmotivated for most of my life. (Part of me still is). I wasn’t interested in participating in a system that I wasn’t passionate about. I didn’t want to fake it.
The difference between us though is I had no safety net. I left my parents house at 18 and I’ve had to be self sufficient ever since. Food, shelter, clothing, electricity, heat, A/C, etc. All of the costs associated with living must be paid for by somebody. I had to earn and pay or do without. I was incredibly apathetic – I loathe(d) the idea of “whoring myself out” – doing what I’d rather not do just to make money to survive- but I did (and do) it nonetheless.
It’s your life man, do what you want. If you want to stay true to your not-selling-out ethos by living with your parents until your 60, have at it. If you hate the system enough not to participate, but don’t have enough pride to despise charity, keep doing your thing. If you think that finding like minded sympathizers on a suicide site will help validate your decision to remain listless, go for it.
It’s your life. Complaining and/or sitting around and doing nothing has never worked for me, but maybe this approach will magically yield results for you. Good luck with that. 🙂
Why does everybody hate working? I like working, but the only way I can tolerate working for someone else is to construct a web of intricate rationalizations that allow me to think I’m really working for myself and not someone else. But to resolve many of the issues you have in bullet point, work is a necessity. So finding a way to like working, and consequently acquiring some work might go a long way towards resolving your frustrations.
Xanadu, don’t take this the wrong way–I really am not trying to be instigative, but “finding a way to like working” is easy to type, but if there were even reliable ways to realize this, I think society would teach them. There is no guarantee that everyone will find ways to like working, but enough people are terrified enough of the consequences of not working that they continue to work for decades despite loathing it. I respect your prerogative, but maybe the OP knows himself better than anyone else knows him, and just honestly doesn’t like working because, as he’s said, he can’t find enough of a motivation to do so. We all have our own world-views, no?
Hope I haven’t upset you.
We’ve evolved for 6 billion years and taken the odd detour into shaping our environment for ourselves, rather than simply being shaped by our environments. Human beings work. It’s part of our genome. And as copeless said, it helps to have something to focus on.
“Human beings work [because] it’s part of our genome? How do you gather that, Xanadu? I agree we perceive and want, and we’re hardwired to try to acquire things we need to survive, but I’m sorry, but I don’t see the surface particulars of culture-work as genetic constituents.
What exactly do you think work is? O.o Money isn’t relevant – humans shape the environment around them to suite their needs, and have for the entirety of human history. It’s a genetic tendency that most of our biology is geared around. The cultural understanding of work that people have today is just one manifestation of that broader tendency. It’s part and parcel that in shaping the environment, we’ve also shaped the way our own natures are expressed.
Xanadu, I don’t think the OP was questioning whether, like every other self aware being on the planet, humans try to realize their wants. I think that’s a given. The OP seems to be questioning the way our culture has evolved, and as is his right, has decided not to participate in the dominant model of productivity as long as he can. And I applaud his bravery.
Have a good year.
@iamzero: That actually seems self-defeating, rather than brave; like putting yourself in stalemate in a game of chess, and wanting to end it all because your king can’t escape the square you intentionally put him in. Things are what they are; work can be satisfying under any mode of production (or lack thereof – just look at how many celebrations Amazonian tribes throw all the freaking time). Work is work, and if the evolutionary capacity to put oneself towards some kind of useful labor isn’t being met, that creates a whole swath of the same problems the OP is complaining about.
Xanadu, I agree with your choice of words, “seems.” An idea means what it does to a particular mind. What seems to someone to be “self-defeating” may very reasonably seem to another “brave.” And I stand by my assertion that I find the OP’s admissions brave. I respect your right to feel otherwise, and don’t see it as any threat to the way I feel. As for your chess analogy of life, anyone can have any perspective of life she or he wants. There are effective ways to realize some objective end (like building a more powerful engine), but many of the things that matter to humans don’t appear to have any certain ways to realize. It’s reasonable that some people will just not like life, and no one should be able to tell anyone else what she or he should think of or do with her or his own life. The OP isn’t asking for answers, and I believe he’s been explicit in seeking fraternity from those who think similarly. I think he’s too smart to be deluded into believing there are answers. He’s venting. He’s doing here just what I thought this site was created for. As he put well, it’s “Suicide Project,” not Career Builder,” or, I’ll add, the gateway to the APA.
If you find work satisfying, good for you, Xanadu. I don’t say that snidely. But I can’t see what logical relationship the way you and others feel about something has to the way any given other individual feels about the same thing. And I must say I don’t buy the tautology that work is work. From a physics or chemical perspective, yes. But there is work one would find more satisfying, less draining. But, as with most other limited resources, winning/getting such work requires playing the game of competition, at the least. Maybe the OP doesn’t want to do that. That’s his right. But there are also countless examples of humans who don’t put themselves towards some kind of useful labor and yet avoid many of the problems the OP is complaining about.
The furor generated in this thread astounds me. It should be safe here on suicideproject.org to ask for like-minded commenters for a discussion on matters the general populace is disinclined to discuss.
Have a good one.
I can understand that, but for me it doesn’t really help resolve anything. It more just keeps me focused and occupied on something else for a while (for the most part). I don’t always enjoy it and it can be really stressful at times but the days I work are easier to get through than the weekends, which are long because I work long hours.
It also can be a bit of a problem when used in a diversionary method because you then ruin relationships with people in your personal life.
My response was @xanadu by the way
Golly Stendarr; I only dislike the Brady Bunch when they beat my beloved Bolts. The Pats? I hope they choke this year.
🙂 <—- j/k (not really)
This is one of those posts where I feel like I could have a lot to say but I am even lazier than the OP so I am too lazy to actually type any of it up. I am sure that eventually CN will come along and say everything I might want to say anyway, and articulate it all better than I would.
@WhatAmIDoingHere (Date: Aug 09, 2014 @ 22:36:34)
Hehe. 🙂 I can relate. That’s why I so rarely post anything online. Lurking is far less trouble.
By the way, who is CN? I’m new here, and was curious as to what this person might have posted on here. No hard feelings if you don’t want to tell me.
CN stands for Clevername he is a regular here, I think you would find a lot of common ground with most of what he posts and says in his comments.
Really smart guy incredibly articulate and thorough when it comes to expressing his views and opinions on most topics. Has written a lot on here and has a lot to say about these kind of social issues.
Hi.
lol, Thanks for the plug ‘WAIDH’.
I’ve been participating less, lately; a combination of mental exhaustion and depression-related isolating. I’ve been putting almost all my time and energy into a… personal project, and haven’t felt up to engaging debate and dissemination of existential wisdom. In fact, i only loaded up the ole bookmark today, after hearing about Robin Williams, a little while ago.
But yeah… i’m not quite ready to die anymore, though i keep a close eye on the ever changing horizon, just in case the situation which would cause a spontaneous exit tries to sneak up on me. I’m drained and vulnerable, in a precarious situation, of which i see no available escape… so i’m trying to stick around long enough to check off the highest accessible priority on my bucket list… and who knows, maybe it will change some things, and become more than just the best available part of the bucket list. Either way, i’m going to do it or die trying (or die voluntarily upon the project failing or becoming unfeasible).
🙂
hey CN yea this just seemed like your kind of topic. The lack of motivation to work for far less compensation than the value of our time. I think if he just searches back through your comments though he will find plenty to read up on, you have pretty much said all there is to say on the subject already lol
@WhatAmIDoingHere
Thanks for answering my question. I actually have read a few of CN’s posts elsewhere on this site. I’ll seek out more of his posts later on.
What’s the lesser of two evils? Living a life you hate or killing yourself?
I still haven’t figured out the answer to that conundrum. I’m stuck in limbo. I wonder if most people stumble along through life, pretending that they know what they’re doing, when in reality they’re just as hopelessly dazed and confused as the suicidals on this forum.
Here’s the way i reason it:
Do you want the safe unappealing choice, or the risk of unknown unknowns?
I will admit there are many things i find appealing about being human on earth. The problem is not that there is nothing good, but that i cannot access enough of it, while being almost entirely immersed in an excess of bad.
I think in the case of “living a life you hate, versus suicide?” Choosing not to decide, is a wise choice. I decided to wait until the option to not decide, is taken away. And at that point, i will almost certainly choose the unknown-unknowns, over the certainty of misery.
One might question the established paradigm where the only options available seem to be having to try to decide which is the lesser of 2 evils. Selling yourself into slavery and devoting a majority of your time to doing things you dislike/hate just to be able to afford the necessities for survival or simply saying fuck it all and killing yourself instead.
@Clevername
It’s funny you mention that. That was something I had relatively recently (though not terribly seriously) considered. And I am more and more inclined to believe that may be the ultimate solution to my dilemma; assuming any acceptable solution actually exists.
Your suggestion immediately reminded of this great article I had read by Oliver Emberton, “How to succeed when you have no special skills”.
and obviously the OP understands the argument that you are making and at least agrees with you in principle since he said himself “I know my outlook is totally unfair, immature, entitled, and that I don’t have a moral or ethical leg to stand on. But none of that changes how I feel.”
live or die? lots of us hate working,we dont want to,money isnt over the rainbow so we must work.or do someting
you have no motivation becose you have never needed to.your parents have provide you whit everyting.aaa we are all suffering.ok?everyone except those rich fuckers.how about living off welfare?thats bad? wat about the poor people who work so hard to make what we use today,clothes,food,electronics.an the bosses pay them tiny wages.that is leeching i tink.
if you want to live,get a job. Fuck that.ok its just important for in the future.wat if your parents die?
deliver newspapers,mow lawns,clean up dog shit,housesit?they can make some money.i dont realy know if thats safe to housesit enyway its where you stay at some elses house and lookafter it an get payed.
Natur, how is telling someone how to feel effective at instilling those feelings in him/her? You’re right that most of us don’t want to work but do so because we feel we must. But, and I know people don’t like the proposition, there is an alternative. There’s always an alternative, assuming one is able. Life for some just isn’t worth it, especially if they have to put in additional energy to survive, as living is already, for many of them, utterly draining.
@naturman (Date: Aug 09, 2014 @ 23:07:58)
I’ll only give a partial response, since my reply to C4 could easily address most of what you said.
Yes, I’ve heard of and considered house sitting. But there are several problems with that. The homeowners might return to their home and not need or want me around while they are occupying the house. For instance, a family that owns a summer home might only need it watched during 3/4 of the year. What the hell would I do during the summer time when they’re there?
Also, if you’re house sitting, the people hiring you could kick you out at any time for any reason. What if they have to sell the house? What if they decide to move and don’t need the house? What if they have money troubles and need to cut back on expenses?
My point here is that there is nothing viable for me. Let alone anything viable that I could tolerate for an extended period of time.
That’s one reason (among several) that suicide seems to be a foregone conclusion for me. It is simply a question of “when” not “if.”
Viability implies adaptability.
Perhaps, instead of trying to find one golden goose, you could reconfigure yourself for a wide and varied spectrum of adequate performance. Not only would that be another type of “job security,” it would also allow you to move on to something else, as soon as you get tired of any particular situation (which partially resolves the “extended period of time” issue).
One thing i’ve noticed, is that when you first start working anywhere, they have lower performance expectations, “because he’s new” (and thus hasn’t learned the environment well enough to excel). You can get by with a well-groomed look and a good attitude, for at least a month. You could even make it a type of “game,” in which you go around applying for various jobs, just for the sake of doing “crazy” things, while you’re still alive to do them.
Just some thoughts. ^^
Please understand that I am not coming down or even judging anyone in what I am saying. I am just giving my opinion on the original post and comments this far.
The grass is always greener on the other-side…..until you get there. And no matter which side of the pasture you end up on, there is still plenty of dirt and shit to deal with. After all, it is the dirt and shit that makes the grass green. Everyone would like the green grass without all the shit and dirt but it just simply doesn’t work that way. I wish it did as well. Now I am actually opposite of the op. I enjoy work. Work is my release almost. Work is where I can be free. You won’t find anyone that works harder or better than I. Yet….me and the op share a lot of the same problems. I am 26. In recent events I have ended up living with my mother. One who hadn’t spoken with me for 2 years prior on purpose. I currently work 6 days a week at 10+ hours a day. I don’t get paid by the hour. I get paid by the day in cash. A whopping 50. I’m not complaining. It’s what I have accepted and chosen to do for now for a number of reasons I will not go into. But regardless, me and the original poster still must depend on someone else for support. And yes. It sucks. I can relate to the original post in that sense and how that it makes me feel very much the same way. So we stand in opposite sides of the fence in terms of work drive and such yet deal with the same shit. Your ability to work and even if you have motivation for it and enjoy it, does not solve the problem. I do not have the answers. If I did, then I wouldn’t be in the same boat. But I can’t help to hear something inside me saying that me and the original poster are focussing and trying to hard to deal with the results of the problem rather than the problem itself. And that if we could deal with the problem directly, the results that we struggle with would dissipate on their own. But seeing past all the negative results that we cannot help but to trudge through on a daily basis makes it hard to see the base root. Now AnxietyGardener, you spoke briefly of a relationship that made everything seemingly worth everything and made life acceptable and tolerable for you that unfortunately fell through for you. And I am truly sorry for that. It’s sucks. It hurts. I know. And perhaps that is closer to the root for you. And perhaps if you could focus on reaching the bottom of that root and resolving it, all the other stuff will take care of itself and dissipate allowing a sense of freedom for you to live your life again. It was a brief but vastly different tone outlook in your post. I do not have the answers. I do feel your pain and have been in your boat every though we are very different people. All I can say, is that happiness does not coincide with motivation to work and the ability to work and support yourself. At least not for me. And I doubt for you as well. And if you continue to look at things the way you wrote them, it will only get darker and happiness will never be reached. I hope the best for you. I am hear if you ever want to talk. About anything. Even if it’s just movies lol. I enjoy them too.
Hey, Oni22, that “the grass is always greener on the other side” aphorism has come to strike me as pretty ironic. Some people don’t *land* on either side of the pasture. I mean, why isn’t simply not landing an option?
Well, I understand what your trying to say, but simply not landing isn’t an option. Everyone is in a situation (life) (the green grass) and it’s truly impossible not to be. Not while you are alive at least. I suppose in a stretch you could consider death as the option of not landing, or removing yourself from the pastures. But what past that……more metaphorical green grass places….maybe nothing. I am not saying there is only two fields one fence. Everyone’s life is a grassy plain of it’s own.
Oni22, “simply not landing isn’t an option”? Why not? If the metaphor of landing is choosing, within one’s abilities, the kind of life to live, I’d say not landing is an option–choosing not to live at all. And that so many people commit suicide ever year, it does appear to be an option. I’m not being argumentative, but in the absence of any empirical reason to believe consciousness survives physical death, I’ll place my money on death being the end of the self, and not having to deal anymore with any piles of crap in any pastures.
Anxiety, if you’re open to it, email me. I have a link to a video to share with you. You might have already seen it, but I think what you’re potentially expounding is revolutionary.
to live or die is their choice.jobs are the main way to get money.society defined this.work,kiss the bosses butt for 50+ years, die.ofc marriage and kids may be part of the cycle.
i realy know that jobs are not an ideal life,so i give my other suggestions that i know of. ther must be more.nobody should need to ‘feel that they must get a job.society defined that.
i was worried if his parents die or kick him out.hmm can he go to a shelter or someting?
jasonsbigsis
Submitted on2014/08/09 at 11:29 pm
AnxietyGardener and iamzero I hope you read this too because you have not left my mind since we started talking. I thought about you all day at work and did a lot of reading and copying and pasting. I came across quotes and poems and blogs of those who have suffered these same feelings.
Before I lost my brother he once told me he had no motivation to do anything. I didn’t know the depths of those words at the time. I now understand this profoundly, with a heart of pain. Many people feel the same way as everyone here. Every emotion or lack thereof, someone else has felt or is feeling now. I wish I could personally pick up everyone who has a heart full of sorrow, loneliness, pain, suffering, lack of motivation, and who utterly can see no other options. It is a disease. My brother had it and I didn’t even know before it was too late. I was so blind. But it is a disease that is possible to overcome. My brother had no treatment of any kind and I think that would have helped him in combination with other things. It’s at least a start. But a start that has to come from within. Everyone needs a way to connect and relieve the pressure. Loneliness is a true thing. It eats us alive. We try to survive it by numbing it or escaping it. But what if there was a different way? What if you could get over that wall and there was something much better waiting for you there?
Sorry, I’m not trying to give advice and I know everyone’s life is their’s and their’s alone. I understand that. But everyone’s life does affect others. I have been affected. I will not forget your words. I merely wish to tell you what you feel is real, I have suffered a tremendous loss because of it which will affect me forever, it is un-doable, and that I offer you a listening ear and a caring heart if you’d ever like.
My true wish is that I could bring everyone here together in person, everyone could hug, form friendships, not be lonely, share feelings with everyone who knows the same way you feel, the pain and unknowing would lessen, and there would be hope. Because when it comes down to it, we all need each other. That is my wish. Although we are all far apart, I wanted to know how people could talk and meet others that feel the same way, besides just this site. I came across this online support group and there are also locations to go in person. It won’t let me post the link but if you Google suicide support groups or depression and bipolar support alliance, there are people to talk to who are supporting each other getting through this.
I’m sorry if that isn’t what you want to hear but I do feel the emotions of everyone screaming out to me. I hear my brother through your words, and I only wish to let you know, without judgment, whether or not I get to talk to you again, and with a perspective outside your own aching mind and heart, and to my very core, I care. And even if you only know that in this one moment, I hope you find peace in knowing you are not alone.
Jasonsbigsis–thanks for that. I know you really do want to help. I can’t speak for anyone else, obviously, but I’m certain I’m done. Have you seen the way some of us interact with others here? Most of us are suicidal, are in great pain, but yet we have enough in us to rip into each other. It’s human nature, and no matter what potential solutions are effected, that nature lies in each of us, just waiting. And it doesn’t pounce on all of us with equal frequency, or according to an individual’s ability to abide the attacks. I remember the line from a movie in which a group of human survivors were locked in a dark room together. The protagonist said, “Put two or more people together long enough and eventually they’ll begin thinking about how to kill each other.” There’s no place, I couldn’t believe more, to escape that. Cruelty is as much a part of us as our sex drive, or our drive to eat. And many of us just don’t want any more.
I really do mean “thank you,” for your compassion and good will.
Jesus Christ. Do I hafta explain everything to you people?
Life costs money. Everything. Food, a place to stay, heat, A/C, electricity, water – all that shit costs money. If YOU aren’t paying for it someone else is. YOU are either paying for it or someone else is.
Be depressed. Lie on the couch and be sad. Chances are you aren’t paying for life and someone else is. If you’re ok with burdening someone else, so be it.
Gawd. I hate this fucking generation. Pussies.
That’s all. 🙂 Have a nice day.
C4, the OP finished with, “Now, my sole non-rhetorical question to anyone who might be reading this is, have you felt this way? If so, please share.” He’s not asking for your interpretation of life (and that’s what it is), so why comment if you have a different opinion? What good comes of your “Jesus Christ” comment? And if after reading the thread in which the OP couldn’t be clearer that he’s venting and looking for some comfort–this is a suicide board, after all–you don’t feel you can offer any comfort, and not even you can believe you have an objective answer, what are you doing here? I don’t believe you commented to wish anyone (other than your sympathizers) a “nice day.”
‘I want everyone to feel sorry for me. Life is too hard but I haven’t tried to make anything of it, except to sit and whinge and complain about everything’. – is what I have got from your post. Start by getting up off your ass and DOING something instead of whinging and complaining.
Hugo, do you feel better about yourself, about your life being nasty to someone who never attacked you and who’s on SP? Man.
Maybe instead of aggressively demanding someone (who is admittedly disinclined) “to something! do anything!” …perhaps you could offer some valuable suggestions of specifics, instead of being too vague to help?
And, if someone desires to be pitied, why do you find that offensive?
Actually, it’s “whine.” Like “wine” but with an ‘h’.
The problem isn’t that the person is merely lazy; the problem is that the person has encountered an existential paradox, and while being fully aware of the “necessity” of work to beget survival, remains utterly unmotivated, and is likely bitter, due to: #1: feeling as though there were never a valid choice; #2: feeling as though nothing accessible is actually worthwhile; including “survival.”
Why would anyone want to survive, if nothing worthwhile can be gained and/or experienced, in the process?
Honestly, i think we should all whine and complain as much as possible. Silence is complicity, and all it takes for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing.
If whining or complaining is able to solve a problem or improve your situation, then yes, it’s a good thing. If complaining accomplishes nothing except for making you feel better about yourself because your grievances were aired out, how does that change anything? It just means you’re a complainer.
Why would anybody want to be pitied? We pity the weak, the half-wits, the damned, the desperate, those who have no hope. Who would want to include him or herself in that category?
^ Disregard that paragraph. This is a suicide site.
I should follow my own advice and quit this site. But hey, nobody likes a quitter. That’s why I’ve never quit smoking.
“If complaining accomplishes nothing except for making you feel better about yourself because your grievances were aired out, how does that change anything?”
I think the vast majority of suicidal people could use a heaping helping of feeling better about themselves… especially the kind they can manifest/manufacture on their own; even if by merely complaining.
Plus, complaining is how information of unfavorable circumstances (and thus, their causes) gets disseminated. If you don’t complain, how will anyone know to help you? Or more importantly: how will anyone know that there is any need to alter their own actions, which negatively impact others? And, how will anyone cooperate toward the betterment of the world (and thus, each individual), if no one complains about what’s wrong with it? I suppose the point of complaining is to get help with figuring out, and applying, what to do about it.
Not sure why anyone would want to be pitied (though i’ve definitely encountered some)… but why does it have to be considered offensive? I could make a huge list of things it’s worse to want. I suppose “wanting to be pitied” could be a result of being disregarded, and of being negatively impacted by the choices others make, due to, and in accordance with, such disregard.
On the contrary: why should anyone care about being labeled “a complainer?” I tend to think it’s generally better to disregard the labels assigned by the unqualified. I guess you could say that being stigmatized as “one who complains,” could result in a type of prejudice, in which those who tend to disregard and find the desire for pity offensive, will do the opposite of what complaint seeks to accomplish: cause those deficient in apathy to make the life of the complainer even worse, out of sheer spite.
Whining, while annoying, as well as complaining, will not resolve a problem on their own… but i say they are each necessary components of the process of seeking, discovering, and implementing better solutions; which are clearly in high demand and low supply, in this world… and further, this seems to be caused by the very people who insist that complaining is “offensive,” who then tend to act in spiteful disregard of those most aware of, and most affected by, problems which could be resolved.
i truly admire your post. I love it. I think its the best post i have ever seen here. I agree with most of what you have to say. You are an amazing writer too
I second that.
i feel the same way really
_
Not sure if the original poster is still here especially after the debate that occurred, but wanted to add that I too can pretty much relate to all of what was said. Of course there is a stigma in this society that comes along with not having a job and relying on the support of others, especially as we get older and older. But you’re not the only one feeling this way. It happens. I see it from the opposite perspective that most do when it comes to the attitude that everyone should have to work; the only people who actually get to make an active decision about bringing another life into this world are the two people who are deciding to procreate. None of us got to review the terms and sign a contract of what it meant to be brought into this world. I myself will never have a child unless I am extremely wealthy because it strikes me as strange that we bring innocent souls into this world and then shortly dump the responsibility in their lap that “by the time you’re 18, you’d better have figured out which variety of slave labor you’d like to partake in for 40+ hours per week for the rest of your life”.
Of course, with that said, other people will take that same logic and say “that’s exactly it, none of us had a choice to be here, but must of us are accepting of the fact that we have to find work and a way to support ourselves now that we are here”. I can see both sides of the argument.
If you look into the way this world really works, how the banking system creates money out of thin air, how corrupt everything is, it only makes it harder to explain to yourself why the shriek of an alarm clock should wake you up each morning to go make 8 dollars an hour. Not to mention the fact that wages have nowhere near kept up with the cost of living. Basically if you want to purchase a 2 hour long movie to watch for $16 dollars at the store, or go see it at the theater, minimum wage means you had to work just about an equal amount of time. The cost of a fast food meal is something you had to work over an hour for, and if you actually want to go to a sit-down restaurant, that’ll cost you 4 or 5 hours of labor on your part.
People are under the illusion that because you are “paid” that working doesn’t qualify as slavery. But it does. I don’t mean to underestimate the torture of true slavery and offend anyone, but simply put, a slave might never see money and simply have their room and food provided for them. We’re supposed to work, and money is just the “middle man” inserted into the picture, it allows us to go purchase things that we want. Overall it’s the same hand off taking place. Labor for the ability to live. Being paid does not make it any better. There’s even a term for it, wage slavery.
So it seems rotten to make other people responsible for providing for you, but going back to what I said before, the parents are the ones who chose to bring a life into this world. And every parent in the world dreams of their child being successful, or at the very least able to support themselves, but there’s no guarantee of that. You also take the risk when creating a child that they may be born with disabilities, in which case you had better been prepared ahead of time to risk that you might have a child that will be your responsibility for the rest of your mortal life. Bringing a child into this world on the assumption that it will all work out is pretty risky.
And the true fact of the matter is that any parent has the legal ability to stop supporting a grown adult at any time they’d like. Parents who are supporting children well into their 20s, 30s, or beyond, are obviously owning up to some of the ideas that I’ve written above; you brought this person into the world by your own choosing, your child didn’t ask to be here, and it’s kinda hard to turn around and put them out on the street. Some parents might have the nerve to kick their kids out, some “experts” will even argue that type of tough love is likely the only thing to get a lazy/unmotivated person into action.
These days there are greater and greater fights for equality for all types of lifestyles and personality types. But being someone who doesn’t support themselves will likely never be a forgivable offense. We see some of the attitudes it stirred up just in the comments here alone.
It’s only getting more common these days though, with the state of the world. Here in the western world, lots of people have moved back home. A family that lives in my parents neighborhood has some of their grown children back at home in the basement (in their 30s or 40s at least, I’m not sure). Many people have accepted that due to the economy, it makes more sense to live together and help each other out.
In other parts of the world, children leaving home and living on their own never caught on in the first place. In the eastern world it is very common for families to continue living together. Only in the wasteful, consumerist western world are we wasteful enough to believe that everyone over 18 should be living in households of their own, all requiring their own supply of water, electricity, resources, etc, simply because it’s “not cool” to live at home. Similar to the materials that go into most of us driving 4+ seater cars when really all we need is something to get ourselves from point A to point B, everyone living in multi room houses that aren’t getting used half the time is wasteful, and an insult to any person who is sleeping on the street tonight.
I could rant about this for a long time. Suffice it to say I have had to face some of the same accusations of laziness etc and a struggle to find my place in this world. When I find something that I’m passionate about, I’m not lazy. I can stay up 3 days in a row when I’m working on a project that I’m excited about. I just can’t get passionate about going to work to make my bosses more money than me off of the sweat of my labor. The argument can be made that “nobody likes going to work” and “suck it up”, but clearly some people do find ways to get paid that doesn’t feel like complete torture to them. And other people indeed do put up with working in a boring cubicle or a fast food restaurant, but if that’s what allows them to buy their shiny new cell phone or to have money to go out drinking with friends on the weekend, they seem to put up with it. Some of us can’t find the desire to do it.
I don’t like being a drain on my family. And I do someday hope that I can’t find a reason to get paid that doesn’t involve doing something that feels like having my skin slowly peeled off for 8+ hours a day. Maybe it’s a cop out and a defense mechanism, but I’ve justified to myself by knowing that I never asked to be here.
///
@ThousandCuts
Greetings. Please excuse the belatedness in posting your comments (bloody spam filter), and the accompanying delay in my response. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and writing on here and elsewhere, and I wanted to give your thoughtfully written post the time and attention it deserved.
I have long thought much of what you have said there, too. However, I struggle with some guilt for depending on my folks. However, among all the people I could be dependent upon, I feel the least amount of guilt in the case of my parents because they are my parents, they brought me into this world through no choice of my own.
If you do a YouTube search for these terms “What if Money Was No Object? – Alan Watts” you’ll find a brief 3 min video where he articulates some of these very same ideas.
I do too. The things I tend to struggle with the most are certain unavoidable, undeniable practical realities. I need, want, and unitize innumerable goods and services that exist through the hard work of others. But then I also consider that I was born into this lifestyle. I wasn’t raised in the bush, so now the thought of living in the bush would be pure unmanageable misery for me. Nor can I extricate myself from this system because all habitable spaces have been claimed by the powers that be. There is literally nowhere to run, even if that were a viable option. And as much as I hate the current social system, going retro, whether it be a colonial pioneer outdoors lifestyle or living as a hunter gatherer, or even as a comparably more mundane survivalist, the alternatives are all considerably more difficult and dangerous than the nice cushy life to which I have grown accustomed.
It’s bullshit. The market forces an overwhelming majority of people to take what I consider to be an unacceptably low ROI for their efforts. What makes it worse for me is that since I have no degree, nor any other kind of specialized training or marketable skill, I would only be eligible for minimum wage (or, if I were lucky, slightly above minimum wage) jobs. It’s a gyp. That is kind of the crux of my resignation. Too bad there is no alternative. No escape. The market is like a force of nature. “You have to be in it to win it.”
Ding, ding, ding! That is why I think that procreation can, and often is, an inherently unethical act. Under what kind of conditions are parents bringing their children into this world? That’s also why I think parents are naive. Mayhaps unavoidably so, or else who would be willing to take such a risk, not just to themselves, but to their unborn offspring, and the rest of society, for that matter.
Not to contradict you, but I also think some parents might support grown children for other reasons than the one you describe. For example, some parents are emotionally dependent on the companionship their children provide. Others might rely on them for assistance with certain things; especially if said parents are disabled.
Part of the reason I’m so settled on suicide is to forestall the possibility of homelessness. Urban survivalism holds little interest.
I can understand some people’s concerns regarding this matter, because it could potentially effect them. The bottom line is nobody wants to get ripped off or screwed over without proper compensation. Nothing in life is free.
True. But in the East the concept of filial piety is also a factor. When people grow old, they aren’t shipped off to retirement communities, they are taken care of by their children at home. For parents in these societies, their offspring are their retirement plan.
You have both my sympathies and my empathy. Speaking for myself, I think I may truly be too indolent to exist in this world. I am, in a lot of ways, my own worst enemy.
I can be like that too when it comes to my passions. Yet, even then I have my limits. Even with those things that most move me, I can only keep doing them for so long before I want a nice long break. I still tend to find it difficult to sustain that kind of intense focus and effort on even my passions, never mind expending that kind of energy on things I have no interest in.
Hear, hear. Clevername had suggested pursuing multiple avenues of employment, rather than focusing on one singular career or occupation to help stave off burnout and maximize financial gains. This suggestion reminded me of an article that I think you should read whenever you get the chance and/or are in the mood: “How to succeed when you have no special skills” by Oliver Emberton.
I’m still extremely pessimistic about there being any viable, palatable employment alternative for me. But if there is any chance I might be able to actually earn my keep in this world without wanting to end my life, I think this might be the way. The approach that the article describes (and that Clevername has suggested) might offer you a possible toehold into some form of rewarding employment.
I’ve enjoyed corresponding with you so far. And if you’re interested, I would like to stay in touch either here, on SP, or elsewhere. Take care.
Well I wrote out a really long comment before to say that I agree, posted it once, it didn’t show up, went to resubmit it, it said I was entering a duplicate comment, tried it again after a while with a few changes, and it’s still not here, at least not on my screen. I don’t even know if the original poster is still here after the debate that occurred, and I’m not going to write it all again, but I pretty much have the same attitude towards working and everything else. Shame that I can’t get my real comment to show up. Oh well.
I see your original comment under spam. I’ve had that happen before.
@Clevername; I guess achieving results matter more to me than hearing about grievances. Stating obvious sources of discontent doesn’t seem as worthwhile as seeking solutions.
I read your mammoth comment from start to finish (this time). You seem like a good guy even if you are a bit verbose. 🙂 G’nite.
@C4
@Hugo77
You once again miss my point. I’m not seeking solutions because I had long ago come to the conclusion that there were none, at least none I found even remotely palatable; hence the disclaimer at the beginning of my post. That’s why I had given up and decided to complain here, on The Suicide Project and offer an opinion that your attitudes thus far, have only reminded me, is completely against the grain of society. And I am reminded yet again, here of all places (oh, the irony), that work refusal – not suicide – is truly the last taboo.
I didn’t want to induce pity so much as 1)find kindred spirits with whom I might provide and receive mutual support. And that through this, maybe (just maybe) get some kind of inspiration or insight to overcome my initial conclusion: that there is no solution to my problem and that death really is the only acceptable solution, as I have long believed; 2)spit in the proverbial face of society and people like you by daring to share one of my most deeply held convictions. That conviction being that toiling indefinitely doing something you hate (which, for me seems to be the only type of work I can obtain) just to see another day, is complete and utter bullshit, and that for some, such as myself, death is far preferable to spending my life in a manner I find utterly disagreeable; 3)I offered this complaint as some small solace for any other like-minded persons who might find this place, read it, and (hopefully) gain some small measure of comfort in knowing that they are not the only ones that have felt this way. Because, up to this point, I felt like I was the only one (or damn nigh the only one) who felt this way. I felt like not only was I the only one who held this outlook, but that I was also the only one who felt it so strongly that I was willing to end my life rather than pursue what you and the rest of society might consider “a constructive solution.”
I am still fairly certain (not 100%, mind you) that there is no solution I could live with. But certain life events – including, but not limited to, complaining on this very forum dedicated to all grievances that might compel one to self-terminate – have made me seriously consider something besides suicide. And in that small way, this site has thus far served its stated purpose.
Greetings fellow underground man. It seems our community is growing. Already 3 of us are here on SP.,
If you want to relate I have a book for you: ‘Notes From Underground’. I think you will like it.
@quaero
Greetings. You know I’ve had epub copy of “Notes” for a while now, but haven’t gotten around to reading it. I am so ridiculously backlogged on my reading it’s not even funny. I supposed, based on your suggestion, that it is very relevant to the ideas discussed here?
What community are you referring to? The users here on SP (of which there are way more than 3 members)? Or other people that share our abhorrence for working?
@Anxiety Gardner; I get your point. You’d rather die than get a job doing something you’d rather not do.
You’re perfectly ok with using other people to get life’s necessities, but you feel you have too much “integrity” to contribute. For you, leaching off others is preferable to “toiling indefinitely doing something you hate”.
If you were my kid, you’d have starved a long time ago. Or you’d be homeless, in prison or dead. If you’re mentally handicapped or a paraplegic, or if you have some other condition which prevents you from paying your own way through life, I can understand your inability to work.
You don’t sound incapable though, you sound unwilling. You sound lazy.
Maybe everyone in the world should wake up one morning and say “I don’t feel like working anymore”. Cops, farmers, teachers, doctors, cooks, scientists, engineers, bus drivers, truck drivers, fishermen, actors, lawyers, artists, janitors, factory workers, etc.
Every single solitary working person should just say “I’m gonna play video games and not work anymore. Anxiety Gardner’s really got this figured out”.
I wonder how that would pan out?
Are you familiar with the term “survival of the fittest”? Those who persevere, adapt, and find a way to move forward and overcome adversity reap benefits. Effort expended will often yield rewards for those willing to put out the effort. Of course not everyone who tries is successful, but at least when they complain about failing they did more than hole up in mommy and daddy’s basement moaning about how they didn’t feel like doing anything.
Good luck. I sincerely hope you’re able to figure out how life operates someday.
@C4
I don’t know why I keep responding, because I think it”s pretty clear that we’re just on completely different pages when it comes anything that touches upon this subject.
I will say that I agree with all the main points you have made, and that (as I had said earlier) there is not a damn thing that you said here that I haven’t told myself, and also heard from others, a thousand times before I made this post. You’re absolutely right. I am bad person. I am lazy and unwilling. I won’t lie and claim I am totally 100 percent cool with that, but I will say that the guilt that stems from this is insignificant compared to the misery of the alternative. And I have felt this way from nearly day one. From my first moment in school right up until the last time I earned an honest day’s pay, reasonable or unreasonable, I have absolutely loathed all the demands placed on me by the world. A world I never would have been stupid enough to enter if I had any rational choice in the matter; but I didn’t. And because of that, I simply made a decision long ago to say fuck it, and take what measure of peace and satisfaction I could from this inherently shitty life in this inherently shitty world, and enjoy myself before I kissed this endless, perverse, sickening fucking nightmare goodbye for good.
It is in large part for this reason that I am a strong advocate of abortion. My take is, if I had needed to have been conceived at all – which I wish to the God I don’t believe in I hadn’t been – I so wish my parents had had the good sense to abort me, because I truly hate this fucking world. I think that’s what this rant, and my desire for self-deliverance ultimately stem from. I wish I had never been born. Then I wouldn’t have to face either the fear nor the pain of dying; whether that be by my own hand or some other factor outside my control. If I had never existed I would have never been faced with the choice between Scylla and Charybdis. I would have been spared all the bother and misery that are part and parcel with being alive, and the world would be spared one more mouth to feed. Sounds like a win win.
Where you are completely mistaken is in your assumption that because I hold this view I have somehow convinced myself that I have integrity. I don’t. I know I have no integrity. Given the alternative, I don’t give a shit. Though trying to earn my way may be the right thing – and I agree with you, it is – there is no guarantee I will get (or would have ever gotten) my fair share for any of my efforts. Why make the sacrifice if the benefit of such a sacrifice remains in doubt? When everything, except misery and death, remains in doubt? That seems like a fool’s errand. But I think you operate from the assumption that one must view his or her -self as good in order to enjoy it.
And if you hold this assumption, you are mistaken.
I’m amoral like that. I am a deeply flawed person. Flawed to the point that I admit that my bad qualities far outweigh my good ones. But I am not a hypocrite (at least not to myself). I live every day with the mental dissonance that results from two opposing ideas coexisting with one another: the desire to get one’s fair share even though that person hasn’t earned it. I have no wall of rationalization. I live with this dissonance every day, as I go about my totally unjustified existence for no one else’s benefit but my own. I see the world as it is, uncertain and unjust, and have acted accordingly to what suits me, not you, not society, not even my parents.
But I guess what I am really sick of is you and the rest of world, be it teachers, bosses, whoever getting on my ass, expecting me to “man up” and eat the endless barrels of shit life serves because, in your mind, that is the only reasonable alternative. Well it isn’t. Right or wrong, that is not the only way. My way certainly isn’t honorable, nor is it sustainable, be it individually or scaled out among a multitude, but given this sick, perverse, unfair joke called life; it is the sanest option for me. The world doesn’t owe me a thing? Fine, but neither do I owe the world a good damn thing. I simply made the best – in my own, dishonorable way – of a hopelessly fucked situation.
The way I see it, life is fucked. Among those that try to play fair by busting their asses and making an honest living, scores among them get crushed by the system. Decent hard working people lose their homes all the time due to foreclosure or some other factor beyond their control, but some of the parties responsible for some of these unfortunate events, like the bankers and the Wall Street traders get away scot-free, and richer to boot. Because the Pharaohs have never really gone away. There is no justice in this universe. Justice is a purely human invention, and as a result is as deeply flawed as the world in which it exists.
Would the world go to hell in a hand basket if everyone made the choice I have made? You better believe it. Civilization would collapse. Humanity would devolve back into a barbarous state, and maybe, just maybe, we would eat other until there was no one left; I could only hope. 🙂 Because fuck if I see any reason to continue this maddening, endless, miserable cycle. But I wouldn’t worry about that happening because there are too many checks in place to keep that from happening. Those crazy enough to take the devil’s road I have taken would almost certainly be undone by the consequences of their own actions, as I too will eventually be undone by my actions, or by the inevitable cause and effect of social and market forces beyond their control.
I suppose I’ve never really understood why, given the only constants life has to offer, aging, loneliness, frustration, pain, obsolescence and death, anyone could get on board with a game that was rigged all along.
Anyway, I have said my piece. I’m moving on (at least for now) because in this place, I have the right say whatever I damn well please regarding my own experience as it pertains to the main subject at hand: self-deliverance. I think what I find most annoying about the tone of your comments is that despite the fact that this is the place to ***** and vent about why one might elect suicide, I can’t shake the nagging sense that you and so many others like you want me to shut the fuck up, just because you don’t agree with my own individual life choices. Don’t worry, pal. I have no social safety net, so you can rest assured I haven’t wasted a dime of your hard earned tax dollars. I won’t be getting my grubby hands on your precious retirement money. I’ve only leeched off my parents, who have remained free to kick my ass to the curb this whole time, and that is between me and them. As for you and the rest of this wretched fucking world: Get off my fucking ass!
@Anxiety Gardener; Sorry for the delayed response, I was busy working a job that I loathe. 🙂
I never said that you were a bad guy, you just have the attitude of a defeatist, that’s all. I also think it’s selfish and hypocritical to enjoy the fruits of somebody’s else’s efforts without lifting a single finger to help contribute. You’re ok with taking, but you refuse to give/help. Sounds like the epitome of selfishness to me.
I agree that the world is imperfect. But I didn’t make the rules, I can only play the game to the best of my ability.
I like the poker analogy. In life, you’re randomly dealt a hand of cards. You must then play your hand to the best of your ability. Nobody ever said it would be fair or easy. Nobody said you have to like it, and nobody asked you whether or not you want to participate. But here you are.
You’ve already stated that you’re not interested in solutions. You would rather vent about how much you hate life, and how you don’t mind being dependent on others.
You’re right. We’re on totally different wavelengths. I would rather be dead than depend on others.
It’s your life, do what you want. Languish in a sea of misery. Immerse yourself in a quagmire of inertia. Seek validation from like minded misanthropes who would rather complain than actually try. It’s your decision.
I don’t believe that Social Security will exist by the time I reach retirement age, either.
You’re welcome to delete my comments if you’d like. I realize that you only wanted to hear from people who agree with your decision to be a professional bum. Sorry, but freedom of speech works both ways. Those with a dissenting perspective have just as much right to express their views.
Have fun with your video games, I have to get back to work. 🙂
@C4
Fair point. And it wasn’t so much our difference of opinion that I found irritating, rather the manner in which you expressed it that I found somewhat irksome. There were others here who essentially felt the same way you did, but they were more tactful about it. I’m not looking for yours or anyone else’s pity, only some understanding.
You would rather be dead than depend on others. I respect that. I feel the complete opposite in that I would rather be dead than have to play the hand life has dealt me. That’s why I came here. Because I’m finished. Maybe that is defeatist of me. I don’t care. I have never much cared for the game of life. The game sucks, and though nobody asked me if I wished to participate, it is my conviction that it is every person’s choice as to whether or not to participate. I have opted out.
I’ll see you around.
@Anxiety Gardener; Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope you find peace, and/or an acceptable compromise.
Well if its any comfort to you I am in the same position but I do have a child who is bent on surviving and I being his mother am the one contemplating suicide for the very reason you mention. I am a mess when at a job. Either I make mistakes or defend myself only to wind up causing a show(crying) because I cant cut it. I have a B.A. in Psychology and cant even put that to use. My dream would be to live on my own with my child and have a good job, but my reality is different. If I knew I could hold a job without making mistakes Id go out and give it a shot, but I would be sentencing myself and son to a life of poverty as my job opportunities are slim to none. I would gladly walk out tomorrow if I knew my life would change for the better but with the economy the way it is I know it wont be. You don’t have to justify to me or anyone why you want out because I get it. C4 doesn’t comprehend how mental illness can be debilitating and his tone is highly narcissistic. He has privilege in that he can hold a job and doesn’t consider the many out there that cant or aren’t given the opportunity, like me. He is at a higher functioning level than some of us and is coming from an egocentric point of view. I fight everyday to make the best with what I have and would gladly live in the woods if it meant that life would be peaceful and I free- I love to camp(lol)!
@madmare
Thanks for sharing your story, Madmare. And thank you for your supportive words. I appreciate them.
Although I sympathize with your struggles with finding and holding down sufficiently remunerative employment, I’ll admit that reading your story made me feel guilty because I can hold down a job (albeit, only low-paying work), it’s just that working makes me absolutely miserable. And full-time work is the worst because there’s so little relief.
It sounds like maybe you have some kind of performance anxiety. Have you considered or tried getting a job that you can do at home? You have B.A. in Psychology, maybe you could get paid writing for a psychology blog (like on Psychology Today)?
You made it all the way through college, which, at this point I can’t see myself doing, so I believe there must be something you can do. It might just be a matter of finding the right opportunity.
It sounds like the solution for you might be to find a low pressure gig, something laid-back. Late night security, perhaps? Boring, yes. But peaceful. In fact, a lot of night shift work strikes me as peaceful (i.e., boring), but that might work in your favor. I speak from some experience. It’s quiet as hell, no pressure. You could catch up on your reading. 🙂
If, in the future, you ever land a new job, maybe you could find out everything you can about what the daily demands of that job are and practice beforehand (as much as is feasible) and try role-playing (again, whatever’s most feasible) so that you’ll feel more confident when it comes time to actually start working. Just my two cents.
Where there’s a will, there’s a way, they say. It sounds like you have the will, you just need to find the way.
There are 74 comments here! I started reading a few before writing my own comment but I just can’t. I have other ways to waste my day, sorry, nothing personal. But to AdvancedGardener, I’d like to thank you for the long rant. I feel the same way. I can’t bring myself to do anything I don’t want to either/don’t believe in. I don’t think working more than 25hrs/week is humanly acceptable. I went through university and I actually loved school at the time (though don’t want to go back, I’m 28). I studied fine arts. I didn’t like anything in school other than music and art so I thought I could work a crap job to get by enough to support my passion for making art. As life went on, I couldn’t stand ever working a crap job. I also couldn’t stand the marketing aspect I needed to “make it” as an artist. For me, I’m unbelievably fortunate to have found a partner while in university and I’m now a homemaker while they work full time. I feel guilty not making any income…well I make some but I could barely support myself for a month with what I make per year. And yeah, all this, my change in attitude towards making art, my broke-ass-ness, and other things have affected my social life and it’s near to nothing now not counting my partner. Everything seems to be dwindling to nothing. And I feel like if anything happened to my partner, I wouldn’t be able to take care of my dog and cat and I’d have to move back with my parents….which would be in another country. It’d be terrible.
Anyways, I’m just recounting myself. All this to say that I relate and I’m really happy you ranted on this site for me to find it. 😀
Hi. Not sure about the policy for bringing a post back from the dead, but I just wanted to say this resonated with me painfully, and that C4 can go fuck himself and his passive-aggressive-preaching-from-his-high-horse tirades. Riddling your replies with smilies doesn’t make you less of an asshole.
Um. Okay. I’m hoping you’re still alive, because I’d like a friend to talk to about this stuff, if that’s okay. I relate with almost everything — the 80/20 play-work ratio, not having a college diploma, being dependent on parents, etc. The thing is, though, I’m beginning to think that I might really NOT be obligated to participate in the mass slavery thing they got going called ’employment’, or to stand on my own two feet, or whatever. I’m beginning to think that if you were crazy-brave or crazy-stupid (more of the latter) enough to spawn, then you’re supposed to support your freaking progeny, not just until they come of age, but like… forever. Unless they spawn themselves, which signals a willingness to play ball with life, barring accidental pregnancies carried to full term and stuff because idk what to think about those. I just think that all the suffering and the shittiness you and I experience were made possible by them creating us, so the burden’s sort of on them.
I don’t know. This is obviously just my ‘moral code’ because it’s advantageous to ME, and no doubt people like C4 would be like lolwut. And it doesn’t mean I don’t feel guilty and worthless for leeching off my parents. Part of me’s also really confused by all this morality bizness, because that stuff is arbitrary, isn’t it? And I can’t exactly talk about this with my therapist, because she just birthed her second child…
Yep. I know how selfish I sound. And I have horrible visions of the distant future where my Mom is terminally ill and suffering, and we can’t afford painkillers because I spent all that time as a bum, and I’m just like shit, what do I do about her pain, am I going to have to murder my own mother, etc??? But at the same time I can’t shake off feeling this way. Jeezus. Life is a pain.
I hope you are well, AnxietyGardener.
Still agree with this post over a year later. Hope the author found peace somehow