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On suicide

by Taf Taf

”Only optimists commit suicide, optimists who no longer succeed at being optimists. The others, having no reason to live, why would they have any to die?”

Emil Cioran

 

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21 comments

rocketman 3/18/2018 - 3:26 am

Kind of true, hard to miss what you never had?

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 12:47 am

Yes,but to be honest,this isn’t a new idea.This kind of pessimistic thinking can be found at the philosophers of Cyrene (it’s a region in North Africa,nowadays Libya) during the Hellenistic period (I’m copy-pasting from Diogenes Laërtius’ book ”Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers”):

”The school of Hegesias […] denied the possibility of happiness, for the body is infected with much suffering, while the soul shares in the sufferings of the body and is a prey to disturbance, and fortune often disappoints. From all this it follows that happiness cannot be realized. Moreover, life and death are each desirable in turn. But that there is anything naturally pleasant or unpleasant they deny; when some men are pleased and others pained by the same objects, this is owing to the lack or rarity or surfeit of such objects. Poverty and riches have no relevance to pleasure; for neither the rich nor the poor as such have any special share in pleasure. Slavery and freedom, nobility and low birth, honour and dishonour, are alike indifferent in a calculation of pleasure. To the fool life is advantageous, while to the wise it is a matter of indifference.”

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 12:58 am

Not necessarily true though. With technologies that come from riches of more than one kind humans can find both relief from and possible an end to suffering and age as well as finding pleasure.

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 1:16 am

Yes,but is pleasure inbuilt into objects?Or can be our actions characterized as good or bad,joyful or sorrowful a priori?I don’t think so…Man creates what he calls ”pleasure” or to be more specific,the illusion of pleasure.As he also creates what he calls ”unhappiness”.There isn’t an absolute definition of ”pleasure” and ”unhappiness”,or even ethics.Everything is subjective.For example,I may enjoy swimming,but that doesn’t mean that swimming must also be enjoyed by others.I may thing that money have value,but is this true?A coin is a metallic object that itself has no value,humans make it valuable.

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 1:36 am

How can we speak about this anyway but speaking subjectively? And by that….Yes. Pleasure can be inbuilt into objects.
Better example: Drugs that release dopamine.

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 1:59 am

Drugs are means that help someone create a perspective about the world.I don’t disagree with you,I’m just asking if this is the ”true” or the ”right” prospective…Can we really know the true nature of the world?And also,many people have different experiences when they use drugs.A drug that is helpful to someone,doesn’t mean that it will help everyone.For example,a drug against depression that makes someone undepressed,doesn’t mean that it will work on someone else. (We’re talking about legal drugs,right?If we aren’t,the same argument can be made for illegal drugs.For example,pot is consider as something that brings joy,but I had a friend who smoked a joint and found his experience very unpleasant.That’s how he took it and I can’t argue with that)

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 2:03 am

Drugs are more than just a means to create perspective.
Question: Have you ever heard of someone not deriving pleasure from dopamine?

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 2:14 am

I never took dopamine and I don’t know anyone that did,so I don’t know.But again,there’s an argument to be made: Is this kind of pleasure the same for everyone? We can say (or assume) that generally everyone who takes dopamine is happy,but is everyone happy in the exact same way?And again,isn’t a drug an artifact,something that man created to achieve happiness?

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 2:38 am

Dopamine is naturally created in our brains. It’s the chemical that is released during many pleasuring experiences. Like sex for example.

littlesoss 3/18/2018 - 11:32 am

This is probably one reason why I spent so long just entertaining the idea, usually with no real plan or intention. The dynamic isn’t there. I’ve sort of made peace with drifting along the bottom. If I can finally get help to get thorough mental health treatment — and more people around me — I can see myself able to begin my life.

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 1:01 am

Is psychotherapy and psychiatry the answer?As Ernest Becker wrote: ”Man cannot endure his own littleness unless he can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level” and ”People create the reality they need in order to discover themselves”.Psychotherapy helps someone to create a reality that fits him/her,since he/she can’t endure the world we live in.They try to restore the (as Freud put it) ”defence mechanisms” that have collapsed.The try to give you a purpose in life,a new perspective on life.They give you an illusion to live in,since no one can live without his/her illusions.Is this the right way of living?Is it worth it? (I’m just asking,I’m not telling you what to do…)

littlesoss 3/20/2018 - 6:37 pm

I don’t really know, but I need treatment for my mental health problems because I can barely get out the house or get a pint of milk, let alone do anything worthwhile. I don’t like psychiatry either because of my own experiences, though, so I can probably empathise there.

littlesoss 3/20/2018 - 6:43 pm

But if you want to encourage ill people not to seek out whatever help is available, then go for it! Trust me, I’m looking for help because I can’t do anything atm, not because I want to feel important.

a1957 3/18/2018 - 4:41 pm

I see this guy, Emil Cioran, has a lot of insights as I watched this and several YouTube videos that followed. Thanks for sharing.

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 1:34 am

Cioran is a philosopher that follows the tradition of many pessimists: Pascal,Kierkegaard,Schopenhauer,Fernando Pessoa,Miguel de Unamuno (he wrote a book called ”The tragic sense of life”),Sartre (his novel ”Nausea” comes to mind) or even Camus (his novels ”The Plague” and ”The Fall” are examples of a pessimistic way of thinking).The only difference is that they try to battle their pessimism in various ways,Cioran doesn’t.

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 1:52 am

Is embracing it not also a way to battle it?

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 2:07 am

Yes,what I meant is that he doesn’t try to overcome it,he accepts it and goes on.In a way,is a,let’s say,”passive” way of dealing with pessimism.

(flutterby you’re a great conversationalist,I have to give you that.Do you want to talk via e-mail?)

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 2:27 am

You can e-mail me.
Lifeisasewer at gmail

Taf Taf 3/19/2018 - 2:32 am

Ok.I enjoy talking to you,you’re someone that can put an argument.I’ll send you a mail,so we can continue talking.Thank you.

flutterby 3/19/2018 - 2:43 am

I’m off to charge my phone and sleep. I’ll e-mail you back tomorrow.

Xnoir 4/2/2018 - 4:00 pm

Hey Taf Taf.
Could you give me your e-mail, I want to share you something.
-k.

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